How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Sachi » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:56 pm

View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:But the instrumentality is like that. From your perspective, it is like the people you know is filling your gaps. Obviously the people you don't know can't complement you, so...

Why not? What if one's circle of peers is so limited that their gaps cannot be sufficiently covered by the few people they know? This seems like an unnecessary convolution, when it's simpler to assume everybody complements each other, stranger or no. A conglomerate super organism comprised off all the souls of mankind, yet unable to connect completely due to people not knowing each other seems very flawed. Further, the point of the conglomerate is to dilute the individual into nonexistence in favor of the super organism; the individual ceases to be.

And you're forgetting the most important part of my Instrumentality: only the worthy may transcend (nO GRiLs AlowED). With a limited group of people combining into one, the group itself maintains a semblance of identity and direction, especially if these are like minded people. Imagine the fantasies I could have with other crazies like me. :D
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby The Flying Fortress » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:55 pm

In a way, we're all united, are not we? Our tastes, joys, sorrows, frustrations, etc., being shared all the time, even if nobody wanted to, we would always be united, deep down you just have to learn to adapt the changes or die because you are NOT in charge of things , The Instrumentality is cool as an illusion, but it's just a dream, I can not take it seriously, our evolutionary process is a natural work, I also do not settle for turning into an orange soup, I like to be This beautiful specimen of reflective prism.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby CommanderFish » Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:58 am

Answer to the OP: No, I would not support Instrumentality for all of mankind, because I believe everyone has the right to decide whether or not they want to become part of a gestalt super-organism with no sense of being. Personally, I would not.

Sachi wrote:And you're forgetting the most important part of my Instrumentality: only the worthy may transcend (nO GRiLs AlowED). With a limited group of people combining into one, the group itself maintains a semblance of identity and direction, especially if these are like minded people. Imagine the fantasies I could have with other crazies like me. :D

Jokes aside, I would argue that no group of people combining into one, no matter how alike they are, would be able to maintain an identity of any sort. To truly be one with a person you have to fundamentally be that person. And since all living beings differentiate from each other in some way (the miracle of life, as I believe Doctor M. would say); as small or as large as the difference may be it still prevents the whole of any being from becoming absolutely the whole of any other being. Thus--and I think this is how it is portrayed in EoE--the only way it would work would be if every person involved completely lost their sense of individual being/identity altogether, becoming functionally dead.

Of course, whether or not that last part is the case is really the crux of the whole debate around Instrumentality in the first place, isn't it?
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Sachi » Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:21 am

The individuals in the small group wouldn't maintain identity, but the general consensus between a group of like minded people would stand a better chance of surviving than it would with billions of unorganized individuals. Say the group agrees on one particular vision of things: once complemented through Instrumentality, their vision would unite as one. The super organism would essentially be the biological equivalent of a political focus group, or really any group of people that come together under a common cause; the cause itself takes a life of its own.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby TheCarkolum » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:58 am

View Original PostThe Cruel wrote:You can have this "fun". I appreciate who and what I have in my life.


You are running away from new sensations. You mustn't run away. You mustn't run away.

The Flying Fortress wrote:our evolutionary process is a natural work, I also do not settle for turning into an orange soup, I like to be This beautiful specimen of reflective prism.


We're not just natural beings. As Gendo says, humanity has science to evolve. We in a certain way have stopped evolution by the time we settled ourselves as social beings. With that being said, that doesn't mean Instrumentality is the right step to keep evolving, but Gendo is right in that one.

Sachi wrote:Why not? What if one's circle of peers is so limited that their gaps cannot be sufficiently covered by the few people they know? This seems like an unnecessary convolution, when it's simpler to assume everybody complements each other, stranger or no


Well, you're right. From a "substantial" POV, everybody complements everybody. But I am referring to a existentialist POV. The void that separates yourself from others is avoided in Instrumentality. Your ideas, your ideology, your mood or your hobbies are conformed by the people you know throughout your entire life. But as you remain as a human being you're separated from them in a certain way, and that's where social anxiety comes from. So, a person you don't know or doesn't have to do with you doesn't enter that frame. Of course, this is not entirely true, because strangers also imprint some psychic "symptom" in you (in psicoanalitic terms), but you know, the "closest" sensation you would feel from Instrumentality would be the complementing of you with your peers.

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Instrumentality is not about fulfilling your dreams. It's nothing like that. It's more like a relief, to put it simply.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby CommanderFish » Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:58 am

Sachi wrote:The individuals in the small group wouldn't maintain identity, but the general consensus between a group of like minded people would stand a better chance of surviving than it would with billions of unorganized individuals.

I don't think that even two like-minded people would be able to maintain an identity as one combined organism. Unless their identities are exactly 100% the same, they will all have to totally forfeit their individual identities in subordination to a singular identity that holds true for all of them. But there is no compromise to this process; there must be no discernible difference between yourself and the Other, otherwise you cannot be one with it. Personally, I don't see how this couldn't lead to everyone lacking identities individually, and I certainly don't see how a combined mass of identity-less individuals could add up to anything more than than the sum of its parts (zero).

In other words, my thinking is this: to become part of Instrumentality with any number of other people, you must first become nothing; and nothing + nothing = nothing. What am I missing on this?

TheCarkolum wrote:You are running away from new sensations. You mustn't run away. You mustn't run away.

Instrumentality in EoE is a big metaphor for escapism, though. And I'd always thought the line "You mustn't run away" was Shinji's vehement anti-escapist conscience speaking. So I'm not quite seeing how this applies here. I would imagine you have another view on the matter?
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Sachi » Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:55 pm

View Original PostCommanderFish wrote:I don't think that even two like-minded people would be able to maintain an identity as one combined organism. Unless their identities are exactly 100% the same, they will all have to totally forfeit their individual identities in subordination to a singular identity that holds true for all of them. But there is no compromise to this process; there must be no discernible difference between yourself and the Other, otherwise you cannot be one with it. Personally, I don't see how this couldn't lead to everyone lacking identities individually, and I certainly don't see how a combined mass of identity-less individuals could add up to anything more than than the sum of its parts (zero).

In other words, my thinking is this: to become part of Instrumentality with any number of other people, you must first become nothing; and nothing + nothing = nothing. What am I missing on this?

You're correct in that the individuals forfeit their personal identities; that much I'm okay with. The super organism would take on an identity of its own using the souls of those involved.

However, becoming nothing is not a first necessary step to the process; it's more aptly described as the outcome to the process. Nothingness results from a dilution of countless individuals. When there's billions of people involved, their individual contribution to the super organism is relatively meaningless, whereas with a group of twelve people, one's contribution would count for 1/12th of the total.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby CommanderFish » Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:46 pm

Sachi wrote:However, becoming nothing is not a first necessary step to the process; it's more aptly described as the outcome to the process. Nothingness results from a dilution of countless individuals. When there's billions of people involved, their individual contribution to the super organism is relatively meaningless, whereas with a group of twelve people, one's contribution would count for 1/12th of the total.

Well, that's not the way I've ever seen it, but I do get where you're coming from. And besides, it's not like we have a super-detailed explanation of how Instrumentality works straight from Anno's mouth to go by; all we have is one, very interpretive film wherein the process in question is not even the central focus. So it makes sense that from the get-go people are going to have very different ideas about what Instrumentality really is.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby The Flying Fortress » Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:25 pm

View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:We're not just natural beings. As Gendo says, humanity has science to evolve. We in a certain way have stopped evolution by the time we settled ourselves as social beings. With that being said, that doesn't mean Instrumentality is the right step to keep evolving, but Gendo is right in that one.


Perhaps I have mistakenly expressed myself, I think that evolution has as many paths as the stars in the Universe, it is something beyond our perception of what it is to evolve, I think when we talk about the natural effects , because it does not include humans? That is, we are not above the process, we are part of it, connecting people is not a natural step for the survival of the specie?

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Tumbling Down » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:26 pm

I would definitely choose Instrumentality for myself, but for others? Nah. I'm not fit to make that decision. No one man should make a decision that impacts all of humanity.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby The Flying Fortress » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:32 pm

View Original PostTumbling Down wrote: No one man should make a decision that impacts all of humanity.

People have interfered in the destiny of other people since always, and this will always be so, in this anime people's feelings are taken into account, when they have power they can give themselves the privilege of filling their internal voids, but it does not mean that it is something Really needed.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:52 am

There's somethings that I kinda agree with the 'whys' to accept it.

First, for me Instrumentality was morally corrupt because it was enforced upon people, SEELE and NERV never wanted to give to humanity the choice to reject it, neither the choice to or make part of it or not make part of it, beyond all destruction and manipulation needed to perform it but in a scenario where neither of these things happen, I would actually see it as morally superior, it is a way for the weak, after all, those that get the worst things, those that will lose, those that can't deal well with people, those that lost in life, those that are handicapped, those that are alone, those that can't deal well with pain, it is an exit and frankly? I find the calls of accepting such a exit as 'cowardly' kinda...unrealiable, because first, suicide (if you do see Instrumentality as suicide...) is a pretty hard thing to do, survival imperative after all, it is way stronger than you think it is.

Choosing an exit isn't a coward choice, after all, it is only cowardly if you're going to damage others to do that so...whoever says that it is a coward way to go needs to answer 'why exactly it is a coward way to go' and particularly? I dare ya to anwser it.

Second, no matter how much we try, somethings in the world just boil down to 'You're not pretty' or 'you're not the best' and if gave the choice, at least in romantic love (and in various situations...), your partner (Or an employer or acquantances...) will eventually run or accept to whoever is smart, beautiful than you and you will be dismissed, the world and the universe isn't fair, people need to accept it, it isn't too much complicated, it is pretty simple actually, but no big deal, maturity is to accept such things and live with it (Obviously, considering that there's way, it wouldn't be immature to accept it...immaturity is to try to live a dream in reality...principally because reality eventually beats upon you and makes everything to crumble down.)

Third, Art? Music? Creativity? Those things only ended up coming to be because we kinda need those to survive? if we don't needed those things, because we became a god like being...why exactly would those things be needed? We don't need to use a hot iron rod to treat wounds because we managed to create a better thing to deal with those things, it is the same thing here.

Fourth, drive to sucess, right, one can say that my reasons boil down to this, before anything, it isn't because I believe that improving is a bad thing, never, if you do exist as an individual, you should actually improve yourself (and if possible improve your body, I am a transhumanist for a reason), but if you do exist as a god...why exactly is it bad that you wouldn't improve? We improve because again...we need to improve, but if you don't need, why exactly would do you do it? Maybe by a inner wish? I don't care, but then, my reason, some will improve and will win, they will reach happiness and sucess, good.

But others will never reach those things and unless if we're willing to violate people's freedoms, they will need to bear with it and accept what they can get from their efforts, even if they were pointless...

And fuck that, if there's an exit from such pain, there's nothing wrong with it, at least there will have not pain and suffering by envy and bitterness from defeat.

That would be my reasons to accept Instrumentality.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:58 am

View Original PostThe Flying Fortress wrote:People have interfered in the destiny of other people since always

:|

Violating someone's else's rights is ok because other people have done it?
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby robersora » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:16 pm

Instrumentality is an all-humans or none approach, right? If that's the case, I oppose it. But if there's a way in which every individual could decide for themselves if they want to embark onto the journey, I wouldn't mind being part of it, depending on my life's situation at the moment.
I feel like this would be really cool premise for a Sci-Fi movie, mostly concerning the low-key drama between people who decided to stay and people deciding to instrumentalize... featuring a ending in the way of EoE or A Space Odyssey, lol.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby fukuda » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:05 pm

There is no hope for humans to understand each other.
Learning to function by yourself in this world is an amazing substitute for instrumentality, and leads to less pain.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby fukuda » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:06 pm

View Original PostTumbling Down wrote:I would definitely choose Instrumentality for myself, but for others? Nah. I'm not fit to make that decision. No one man should make a decision that impacts all of humanity.


According to Kabbalah, everyone shall have to make this decision and it will be as simple as it is presented.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Snow » Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:24 pm

I'd oppose it for it's core purpose; Uniting humanity. I hold the belief that in the end our differences are the source of a large part of our creativity and diversity in the fields of science, arts etc. A system composed of units with different values will strive forward with different approaches and principles. This applies to all levels of societies, from states and large hierarchic organizations to households and simply small groups of people. In essence, i believe uniting would be the effective end of humanity as it is known as today. I do not believe in an utopian scenario.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby zlink64 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:12 am

No I dislike people too much. And it's probably inhuman so it might as well be death.
hmmm

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby VUX » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:37 pm

No thanks i want to keep my individuality!
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby El Squibbonator » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:55 pm

It seems to me like we've already had one. We call it social media.
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