“Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby xanderkh » Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:04 pm

Can't really blame Shinji or Asuka turning out the way they did despite having sex. If anything, it was a recipe for disaster.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still AxS material, but given the circumstances, their conflicting preconceptions about both sex and each other, and probably their limited knowledge of sexual conduct (moreso in Shinji's case), is it any wonder things turned out the way they did. Sex may be "adult", but it's far from a solution.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Guy Nacks » Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:10 pm

Just think: It took two decades before someone in the fandom posited compelling evidence that can convincingly argue a key character interaction that this fandom has only speculated over in that same amount of time and which has staggering and dramatic implications for the rest of the story. This is the atomic bomb of discoveries, which is why I would hope someone presents Anno/Tsurumaki/etc. with this information and asks if this was their explicit intent, DOTA notwithstanding. But that probably won't happen.

Case and point why NGE is still my favorite show. The revelations never end.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Chuckman » Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:19 pm

Yes, this is huge.

It also fills in a lot of gaps and adds meaningful new context to other parts of the work, so it goes far beyond a quirky fan theory and smoothly supports itself as part of the narrative.

This isn’t shipping, it has nothing to do with for-funsiea fantasizing about the characters in a romantic situation.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Arcadia's legacy » Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:35 pm

Eh, i'm not so sure about this. Like Joseki and Cybermat says, while the evidence is convincing, it could just as easily be coincidence. Also, while Anno is often known for hiding info in subtlety, something on this level i think he'd be more up front over, especially since he was with Kaji and Misato
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby anonymaus » Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:49 pm

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:Also, while Anno is often known for hiding info in subtlety, something on this level i think he'd be more up front over, especially since he was with Kaji and Misato


I think anything which can harm the wide appeal of the show gets expressed ambiguously. For example, many people think there are subtle hints indicating that Ritsuko was subjected to gang rape before her interrogation at SEELE's hands. If that act was depicted in the show or even stated to have occurred, a significant amount of the viewers might have stopped watching.

In this case it's because if you unambiguously show Asuka and Shinji porking, you risk driving away those who would prefer Kaworu or Rei or other characters have an exclusive relationship with Shinji instead. I can't think of the correct wording here but you know what I mean anyway.

With ambiguity you can show what happens while still giving those fans plausible deniability, so they won't feel sour about the show.
Of course we can't confuse this with meaning that everything which is ambiguous is a concealed objective truth.
But it explains why seemingly truthful things may be ambiguous when it makes no sense for them to be.


View Original PostJoseki wrote:I rewatched the sex scene in EoE and there's something that doesn't quite fit in my opinion: the dialogue.

A: Even just the sight of you gets on my nerves.
S: Because I'm like you?

I can believe Asuka being the "crazy in bed" archetype and being quite aggressive in that occasion and extremely cheerful the next morning, but Shinji's line implies a level of understanding of Asuka's mind that I believe Shinji doesn't have prior to instrumentality.

I also want to point out that the moaning during Fly me to the Moon is in episode 16, the one that ends with Shinji in hospital and Asuka outside his room, watching the video I got the impression that it was supposed to be on episode 15.


This is a tangent, but I think the favored translation of this line is: "Just the sight of you drives me crazy!"
Rather than "Looking at you infuriates me!" isn't it possible that Asuka's saying she's attracted to him against her will, which infuriates her?

I agree though, I don't think their dialogue fits the memory. I don't see why Asuka would be furiously angry at one moment and asking, "Say, do you love me?" in the same encounter.
I think the dialogue is not part of the memory. We see Misato speaking new lines in the middle of her instrumentality sex too.


For what it's worth, I wouldn't consider this theory a certain truth or begin building off it as if it were tier 1 indisputable canon. But I do think it's more likely to be true than not.
Last edited by anonymaus on Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:10 pm, edited 12 times in total.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Joseki » Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:52 pm

I rewatched the sex scene in EoE and there's something that doesn't quite fit in my opinion: the dialogue.

A: Even just the sight of you gets on my nerves.
S: Because I'm like you?

I can believe Asuka being the "crazy in bed" archetype and being quite aggressive in that occasion and extremely cheerful the next morning, but Shinji's line implies a level of understanding of Asuka's mind that I believe Shinji doesn't have prior to instrumentality.

I also want to point out that the moaning during Fly me to the Moon is in episode 16, the one that ends with Shinji in hospital and Asuka outside his room, watching the video I got the impression that it was supposed to be on episode 15.


EDIT: The OA v DC page for episode 22 made me notice something: during Arael mindrape in the original DC episode two panels read "Tod Sex" and "Sex", but then they were re-censored again for the Renewal/Platinum. The "moaning scene" too was added with the DC.

I can imagine Arael and Asuka having a sort of psychical sexual experience being the reason of the moanings in this context.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Guy Nacks » Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:03 pm

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:while Anno is often known for hiding info in subtlety, something on this level i think he'd be more up front over, especially since he was with Kaji and Misato


First of all, there is no way in hell Anno would be able to be "up front" about suggesting an overt sexual relationship between two young teenagers without incurring some kind of severe backlash from his financiers. Even having Misato and Kaji have sex off-screen was supposedly hugely frowned upon at the time.

Literally the only way he could have implied a sexual relationship between Asuka and Shinji took place would be to be as subtle about it as humanly possible. The most overt evidence that Anno includes that such a scene took place was in the Pre-Instrumentality scene in EOE, (where Asuka and Shinji are naked on top of the same blue material as her futon) which can easily be explained away as mere symbolism, and was in a theatrical feature that did not have the same level of restrictions that he had on television.....as well as the scene where Asuka's severed teddy bear head falls to the ground with her asking "Do you love me?" while noises that sound like sexual moaning performed by Miyamura are heard in the background. That scene was a Director's Cut addition to episode 22 and was not broadcast on television.

What I'm saying is: If you wanted to indicate that two young teenagers had a sexual encounter at some point in your series that is--and this is key--marketed towards young adults without incurring some kind of humungous backlash from the moral authority, your financiers, your network, and even your fanbase, you have to go to a lot of effort to make sure it's not detected on a surface level.

And since it's been about 20 years and no one has brought this up ( at least in the English-speaking community), I think Anno and co. succeeded (again, if that was their intent.)

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:I agree though, I don't think their dialogue fits the scene. I don't see why Asuka would be furiously angry at one moment and asking, "Say, do you love me?" in the same encounter."
I think the dialogue is not part of the memory. We see Kaji and Misato speaking new lines in the middle of their instrumentality sex too.


There are scenes that happen during pre-instrumentality are altered versions of scenes that actually happened previously (Asuka and Shinji's kiss, for example), so it's entirely possible that Asuka did not have an angered expression on her face what that encounter originally would have happened.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Arcadia's legacy » Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:22 pm

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:And since it's been about 20 years and no one has brought this up ( at least in the English-speaking community), I think Anno and co. succeeded (again, if that was their intent.)

To me, that's the key phrase here. While this seems possible, i'm not sure if it's a good idea to suddenly accept this as an absolute truth
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:10 pm

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:First of all, there is no way in hell Anno would be able to be "up front" about suggesting an overt sexual relationship between two young teenagers without incurring some kind of severe backlash from his financiers.
My head has been too deep into coding today to switch context and look at the thesis presented up-thread. I will however observe that Shoujo Kakumei Utena was only two years later, but was truly blatant in its implications (recalling Morinaga Milk's epic rant about episode 33 as concerning but one of many such incidents -- and that was one that was for a change neither incestuous nor homosexual).
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:53 pm

Darn, I had clicked on this thinking I was gonna read a theory. Now I gotta wait until I get back home before I can watch the video.

I’m not gonna argue either way with it just yet, but I’m not inclined to assume that they had sex in Ep 15 either. Anno has done sex scenes for broadcast Japanese television in shows like Kare Kano, and, while there’s no explicit sexual content in such scenes, the fact that certain characters had sex was explicit. No similar scenes conveying sexual relationships occur in NGE as they did in Kare Kano, so I’m not so readily inclined to assume such things.

But I’ll give this a watch as soon as I can get back to a computer and see what this is all about. Like I said, though, even with censorship involved, Anno is still usually explicit about intent, even if he can’t be explicit about content. (He’s a clever director like that.)

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Cybermat47 » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:28 pm

View Original PostJoseki wrote:I rewatched the sex scene in EoE and there's something that doesn't quite fit in my opinion: the dialogue.

A: Even just the sight of you gets on my nerves.
S: Because I'm like you?

I can believe Asuka being the "crazy in bed" archetype and being quite aggressive in that occasion and extremely cheerful the next morning, but Shinji's line implies a level of understanding of Asuka's mind that I believe Shinji doesn't have prior to instrumentality.


I’d say that the situation of them being in bed is a memory, but what they’re saying to each other is new. Like how the kiss scene is twisted later on.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:51 pm

The issue with that is that we can’t rely on anything we see during Instrumentality as a memory of any kind. There’s too many characters being socked at first time occurrences in order for us to decipher any reoccurring events or memories from that scene.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby cyharding » Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:56 pm

I read it, and while I think anonymaus put a lot of effort into this, I'm just not buying it. There are just too many alternate explanations for all of his points. I don't think we should declare this a dogma like some people are on this thread.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Chuckman » Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:01 pm

What are the alternate explanations?
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Snow » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:10 pm

I'm not convinced. The event sure would have had a very large impact in their way of interacting with each other, which i can not see. Unless Anno confesses, i'm out.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby The Cruel » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:29 pm

It doesn't surprise me, though why would Asuka and Shinji have Sex if none of them got the right response from one another and failed in their kiss? That it was shown in EoE is a indication of their unfulfilled desires and conflicted feelings. They tried and failed in what they wanted.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby zlink64 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:26 am

I liked this.

I agree with The Cruel, with in the scene itself it doesn't really make sense. I also take a lot of the sex from those moments as being metaphorical for being "one" since being one is presumably intimate like sex. In the mind rape scene it could just be the angel "raping" her and talking to her through her so "Do you love me" is really "do I love myself" and on a meta level it could be literal but in the moment it's to herself/angel to her. Similar to the way Angels talks to Shinji and Rei through themselves and even Rei gets the tentacle rape bit. Not convinced but wouldn't shock me if this was true. I'd say it'd make the story a bit better if it where true and frankly I want this to be true since it makes it so dramatic/sad imo but I think it's not true.

Note on meta level: This isn't really necessary to explain anything. For example hypothetically if this were true it wouldn't change my interpretation of Their relationship or really answer any questions. All it would do is make me say "huh, that makes sense". It's not a missing puzzle piece. And when taken literally it could be reference to other themes,feelings, etc throught out the the show and of/or Asuka.

Also give that video a more searchable title so people can find it, and decent tags and post it on reddit.
Last edited by zlink64 on Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
hmmm

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby anonymaus » Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:59 am

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:In the mind rape scene it could just be the angel "raping" her and talking to her through her so "Do you love me" is really "do I love myself"


I don't think this is the case. Arael's voice is childish in every other line in that scene. The "Say, do you love me? / Do you really love me?" lines sound exactly like current day Asuka.
It also doesn't make sense for the scene to be about self love when the 'frame spam' sequences are peppered with images of Shinji and Asuka together. And if Arael was asking Asuka "do you love yourself", why would she be desperately replying that she doesn't?

I also don't think Arael did any raping in the entirety of this scene. The way Arael did things was surprisingly... I don't want to say 'fair', but something like "lawyer-esque." He was just presenting evidence to Asuka which she was previously in denial of. She had previously been telling herself that she was an adult who has no need for a mother, so Arael masqueraded as Kyoko and made her admit that it was an act and she really was still a child.
Next Arael moves on to Asuka's relationship with others. That's the "I can live on my own!" scene.

When Asuka says that she's been defiled, I don't think the angel is the guilty party. It just reminded her of something she had been denying.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:02 am

I'm thinking of Shinji's reception to Misato's sexual advances in Episode 23, and cannot imagine Shinji reacting any other way with any other girl or woman. (Keep in mind that Misato had been establishing herself to Shinji as a playfully sexual being since Episode 1, therefore keeping herself as primarily a sexual being in the mind of Shinji.) Shinji's reaction to other sexual advances by other people probably wouldn't be very positive, even if it was from Asuka. In fact, sexual propositions tend to alienate him even more from the ladies. (Note that he kept a healthy relationship with Rei for the longest in the series, and that was because she was the only person he saw as a mother figure. If someone presents themselves to Shinji in a sexual way, he tends to distance himself from them if they attempt to physically act upon it.)

Based on Shinji's reaction towards sexual advances in the rest of the series, if Asuka had sex with Shinji in Episode 15, then it most likely wouldn't have been consensual or enjoyable on Shinji's end. In that case, I don't think Shinji's attitude after being raped by Asuka would have been "Sure, we can try kissing i guess, LOL."

By that reading, I would only be convinced that they had sex if Shinji was sobbing in the corner of the room, or somehow even more detached from everyone else than he already was. His relationship with Asuka would have changed into a abuser/victim relationship throughout the rest of the series, and at least those elements would have been plainly depicted on-screen in explicit ways.

I know EvaGeeks generally has a sex-positive vibe, and that's great and all, but it's out-of-character to read that general vibe into a TV series that focuses on a character that isn't sex-positive himself at all. Seriously, re-watch Episode 20 and see how tangled up Shinji becomes over the sexual aspect of the women and teenage girls in his life. (It's presented in a way that doesn't single out any one specific character as being more sexually available than the other, further negating any reading of Shinji having sex with anyone in NGE. Shinji's not dealing with the concept of sex as positively as Misato is (or any of the other adult characters, for that matter.)

I'm gonna file this theory in the same category as "Misato Killed Kaji," or, "Shinji Created The Perfect Woman After Third Impact." It's fun to think about from time to time, seemed somewhat plausible at first, but further reading on the surrounding character development properly contextualizing the specific scene in question completely negates the theory's practicality.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby anonymaus » Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:18 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I'm thinking of Shinji's reception to Misato's sexual advances in Episode 23, and cannot imagine Shinji reacting any other way with any other girl or woman.


1) The scene you're talking about happens directly after Rei has sacrificed herself to save Shinji. As far as he knows she's dead for good. He is probably not in the mood.
In episode 15 the atmosphere is extremely normal. Everyone in the episode is on a date, at a party, having fun, etc. If there was ever a time for the pilots to hook up then episode 15 would be it.

2) Throughout the whole of NGE, Shinji is lusting after Asuka.
I'm too lazy to make a collage of all the times he's clearly staring at her breasts, but it happens at least four or five times.
There's an entire scene in instrumentality about it.

3)
In that case, I don't think Shinji's attitude after being raped by Asuka would have been "Sure, we can try kissing i guess, LOL."

I don't think it would be rape. I think Shinji would've behaved similarly to how he did during the kiss. And I think the sex happened after the kiss, not before. Probably in the middle of the night.


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