Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:Interesting thought here. How much cheaper might it be to build something like JA than an Evangelion? If a government spec'd into building multiple JAs, it might be enough to give an Angel a run for its money. By economic standards, it would be the path to take: competition yielding the most monetarily efficient method to deal with the Angels. Of course, that line of action wouldn't be desirable to Gendo or Seele-- but it could have worked.

Admittedly I don't have any solid figures to go by, but generally speaking it is much faster and cheaper to make a conventional robot than it would be to make a comparable life form in a laboratory (especially a cyborg like an evangelion, since it uses an extremely rare DNA type and requires advanced cybernetics to integrate its mechanical and organic components, not to mention the neural control system for the pilot, etc.) I seem to recall a hamburger patty being grown in a laboratory a little while back. I can't remember the exact cost to produce it, but it was in the tens-of-thousands of dollars (US) range, if that gives you any idea of how much an eva might cost by comparison. I'm going to see if I can find the exact price for that burger patty.

EDIT: Wow, I was way off. That 5-ounce patty cost $330,000 US to produce! Here's the article.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/lab-grown-beef-taste-test-almost-like-a-burger/2013/08/05/921a5996-fdf4-11e2-96a8-d3b921c0924a_story.html

IronEvangelion wrote:I know NGE makes Jet Alone look pathetic, but if the first unit hadn't been sabotaged during its demo, and more importantly if its creators had found a way to counter AT fields like they said they were trying to, could it have become an effective weapon against the angels?

The updated JA-2 model from the NGE2 game was able to take on MP Evas, though those Evas seemed completely unable to use their ATFs defensively, so this may not be saying much.

I've always hated the Jet Alone robot because it looks so ridiculous, but as a weapons platform it is probably far more practical than the Evangelions, though the Evas were never made with practicality in mind, just necessity.

Jet Alone's biggest issue is its inability to generate an A.T. Field. I'm not even sure how they would create an artificial one, since the Eva cores and clone bodies of Adam/Lilith are a major requirement to generating an A.T. field - at least for Human operators. It doesn't matter how many they make, if they can't figure that one out, game over.

Its other major fault is the Nuclear Reactor. While probably not as costly as an Evangelion Unit, its still expensive to put together. Its also extremely susceptible to external influences and not very suitable for combat. I mean, if any of the reactor's support systems are damaged during combat, coolant pumps, pressurizers, etc, then the whole reactor is at risk of catastrophic failure. There are a lot of safety nets they could potentially build-in with the reactor, but there are just so many things that could go wrong and a Nuclear meltdown is always messy.

Fusion power would be the ideal choice. There is no radiation in the event of an explosive accident, which the likelihood of is pretty low, as I understand it. The problem is that Fusion reactors are a little delicate in that the reaction has to be maintained at a specific level. If even the slightest change occurs, you'll probably start losing power. But that's another bonus towards Fusion power, if any change should occur for the worst, all you do is cut the fuel supply and the reaction stops - explosion avoided.

Well, IIRC the nuclear reactor was just for the prototype, they intended to use a N² Reactor but it wasn't finished in time for the demonstration, so they put in a nuclear reactor.
But the following units would had received N² reactors had the demonstration worked.

As you said, the big problem is to develop anti-AT Field weapons, without that those things are just giant overpriced decoys for Angel fire.

Glor wrote:as a weapons platform it is probably far more practical than the Evangelions,

You think? That thing is so obviously overbalanced it's a miracle it can walk - and I can't imagine it being able to get up if it falls or is knocked over. So at the very least, they'd better be recoil-less weapons. And how do you see it faring in a hand-to-hand tussle, as happened with several angels?

@ElMariachi: Ah, forgot about the N2 Reactors. At least a safer bet than the traditional Nuclear reactor, considering we don't know anything about how it works.

The only way I think Jet Alone could be effective is with anti-A.T. field ammunition for weapons - which was an ass-pull from 3.0, but I guess given the amount of time that passed, they would figure something like that out.

Or, as unlikely as it would be, if each Jet Alone were armed with a copy of the LoL like the MP Evas, that would make them significantly more effective. Although, we saw how rudimentary the MP Evas attack protocols were with the Dummy System engaged. Perhaps this would warrant some sort of A.I. to control it as opposed to a room of operators, since people can only react so fast - especially when not connected directly like an Eva pilot.

@pwhodges: The prototype design is really clunky, but the upper bulk was probably to protect the reactor more than anything else. Its got arms and legs, so I don't see getting up being too much of a problem, the issue lies in how its controlled.

An Evas biggest strength is that the pilot is directly connected to the Eva... but this strength isn't built on at all because none of the pilots except maybe Asuka are trained to make it an advantage. Its biggest drawback is the same thing, the pilot feels everything and it makes it difficult to come out on top in combat situations when one is not trained for it.

For instance, when Unit-01's dummy plug is engaged against Unit-03: the Eva easily manages to break the Angel's hold and begin choking it, resisting its attempts to free itself. Could Shinji have achieved the same results if he had bothered fighting? Maybe, but I feel its unlikely. A machine that does not register pain, like Jet Alone, would fair better in melee with an Angel because it can keep going until its rendered inoperable.

Then again, Evas would probably be more effective overall just utilizing the Dummy Plug system.

I think mass-produced JAs would be effective in the ranged fire support role: get an Eva to grapple with the Angel in CQC then have the JA snipe out the Angel's core while the Eva is neutralizing the sucker's AT-field.

pwhodges wrote:You think? That thing is so obviously overbalanced it's a miracle it can walk - and I can't imagine it being able to get up if it falls or is knocked over. So at the very least, they'd better be recoil-less weapons. And how do you see it faring in a hand-to-hand tussle, as happened with several angels?

Well, it went up against Eva-01 without using its arms, and still didn't topple over. Besides, any discussion about physics as it applies to how these things move around will invariably result in the rubber physics discussion.

Fire support would be far better supplied by existing or upscaled conventional units though. You can transport a lot more firepower at a much smaller cost on wheels and treads then on giant bipedal robots. In fact I really have to wonder why they even bothered sending an eva out to fight Arael or Ramiel instead of firing at it with the positron cannon just mounted on a firing platform or mobile turret. It's not like ATFs were involved in either case.

This is reminding me of one of the more popular criticisms of Pacific Rim: why not just set up the really effective cannons around where they knew the monsters were coming from? In the case of Tokyo-3, just set up a shit-ton of positron cannons and cream everything as it comes in.

Personally, I think it's a question of tactical adaptability: a positron rifle takes an ungodly amount of time and energy to charge, so that's pretty much a one-shot thing, now if the rifle damages the Angel but don't kill, the best is to have the Eva already deployed and ready to pounce at the weakened Angel before it had the time to regenerate, while it's possible that by keeping them in the cage and deploying them once the ANgel is wounded would take too much.

There are too many times in the series where the EVA's AT field has protected it from an Angel attack. In order to make a Jet Alone that can perform on the level of an EVA, you really have to go deep into the realm of speculation. The fact that people thought that Jet Alone would be even the slightest match for the Angels, after they figured out the pesky AT Field, is testament to how little people outside of NERV and SEELE knew about what was to come.

Honestly, I'd rather just keep Jet Alone speculation in the shipping threads.

NemZ wrote:In fact I really have to wonder why they even bothered sending an eva out to fight Arael or Ramiel instead of firing at it with the positron cannon just mounted on a firing platform or mobile turret. It's not like ATFs were involved in either case.

In Ramiel's case, they rather imprudently had no such apparatus ready, and I'd think that the gun needed AT-field protection in case it missed or Ramiel shot back (I see no reason to think that Zerogouki's survival and protection of the cannon are entirely because of the shield).
In Arael's case, they again seem to have had no such apparatus, which is pretty unforgivable, if they had enough money to constantly build and repair superfluous Evas they had enough to build and mount several cannons. But I'd still think an Eva would ideally be present, again since the cannon had no AT-field.
Why Seele would prefer to devote funds to their own forces and Instrumentality-tools rather than Gendou's defences is pretty obvious.

I can certainly think of one major advantage of a mass produced JA program. If Bardiel were to ever hi-jack one of them, there would be no handwringing over what to do or worrying about trying to rescue a human pilot. Just lob a few N^2 mines in it's general direction and turn it (along with most of its surroundings) into a big ashtray.

Now that I think about it, a second or possibly third generation version of Jet Alone (complete with fifteen years worth of steady improvements) featured as the main attraction in 3.33 would've been roughly eight hundred percent cooler than any of the other so-called mecha that movie had to offer. I've done the math.

BC Baron wrote:Now that I think about it, a second or possibly third generation version of Jet Alone (complete with fifteen years worth of steady improvements) featured as the main attraction in 3.33 would've been roughly eight hundred percent cooler than any of the other so-called mecha that movie had to offer. I've done the math.

That remember me the fanfic Reticence, where there where JA Heavy Armor Units to serve as cannon fodder against the NS and MP-Evas. Asuka and Mari has their personal ones.

From what we've seen in the show, Jet Alone doesnt really seem to be anywhere near an Eva performance-wise (apart from power supply, walking speed and maybe physical strength), yet the Japan Heavy Chemical Industries people had so much confidence in it, , which leads me to believe that there was something more to it than what we got to see in the series, apart from its considerably strength.
My guess would be AT-field-neglecting armament (similar to anti-AT-field ammo, except for melee weapons), since otherwise I dont see it holding its ground against any of the angels, apart from maybe Matarael

Nerv has funding problems as the later episodes and EoE have shown: the base security can barely response to a terrorist attack; the second command center was rushed to finish; Evas have to wait in line to be repaired. Therefore, Gendo probably would not even tolerate the idea of a competitor no matter what tactical benefit it could bring.

Furthermore, the real purpose of Nerv is to implement human instrumentality. No matter how well Jet Along could fight against angels, it will hot accomplish that goal. SEELE will not allow that to happen. Although it would be interesting to see what SEELE would act should JHCI proceed with its plan unimpeded. Will SEELE fund Nerv using dark money? Will SEELE veto JHCI's proposal through the Human Instrumentality Committee? But I digress.

mys_721tx wrote:Nerv has funding problems as the later episodes and EoE have shown: the base security can barely response to a terrorist attack; the second command center was rushed to finish; Evas have to wait in line to be repaired. Therefore, Gendo probably would not even tolerate the idea of a competitor no matter what tactical benefit it could bring.

The thing is, Jet Alone happened in Episode 7. After Ramiel and before Asuka arrived. By then budget wasnt cut for the Evas, at least not in a scale anyone bothered with it too much (if I remember correctly)

mys_721tx wrote:Furthermore, the real purpose of Nerv is to implement human instrumentality. No matter how well Jet Along could fight against angels, it will hot accomplish that goal. SEELE will not allow that to happen. Although it would be interesting to see what SEELE would act should JHCI proceed with its plan unimpeded. Will SEELE fund Nerv using dark money? Will SEELE veto JHCI's proposal through the Human Instrumentality Committee? But I digress.

Thats actually a good question. But one shouldnt forget that instrumentality (at least in the way NERV and SEELE intend it) is only possible after all angels are defeated, so having an additional fighting unit, even if not as strong as an actual Eva, would be very profitable.

Blockio wrote:The thing is, Jet Alone happened in Episode 7. After Ramiel and before Asuka arrived. By then budget wasnt cut for the Evas, at least not in a scale anyone bothered with it too much (if I remember correctly)

Actually, aside from a few mentions of budget in Ep 02, Ep 07 is the first episode that addresses finances in the Eva verse. Ritsuko discusses the repair budget after Operation Yashima, and Gendo has a conversation with a man about budgets being voted on and approved for various Evas around the world. These details about budget also are paired with the episode that first explores Nerv's shadier side.

Overall, the connection between budget, Nerv's shadiness, and the JA sabotage seems to be deliberate. I imagine Nerv eliminating financial competition to secure a budget for itself is not far off the mark.

The real reason is that Jet Alone was simply too powerful.

Gendo knew that a machine built on hope would always end up far more powerful that his own creation which was built on physical and psychological abuse and emotional manipulation.