Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby silvermoonlight » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:43 am

View Original PostChuckman wrote:A period piece Superman would be great but I think the idea of the Lois-centric film works better if set in the modern day. Through her we can see how Superman is received through social media, etc.

Hell, make it contemporary. No hidebound Perry White at the Daily Planet building in down town Metropolis. She's a skeptical, bitter reporter for a noteworthy but not huge blog that focuses mostly on politics and they've just been acquired by a media giant, so now she's under pressure to drop the Lex Luthor stuff she's been writing about in favor of broader puff pieces and her editor is a jackass who wants to put clickbait titles on her stories and make her write for slideshow articles. Focus on building a sense of a real person in a real world, and then a man comes out of the sky and catches a crashing airplane with his bare hands.

I think that's what feels flawed in the DCCU. If you're going to follow this mythological figure through his birth and first exploration of his powers and place in the world it pushes everything else aside. It's hard to make a film "about Superman" the way MoS was trying to be while having be about Superman. It pushes everything else to the side and we ends up with a lot of telling rather than showing.


In the words of Philip J Fry  SPOILER: Show
Image


I love this idea because it plays really well on the theme of what if gods are real and what if everything you knew was wrong and aliens exist and suddenly as a reporter your world is turned upside down and your downing wine and smoking more just to cope with the stress. While also dealing with half of the internet who hero worship this super human while the negative side are turning him in to a cult icon and the other half are feeling utter terror and your slap bang in the middle of the shit storm and feeling like everything has gone crazy and your afraid of meeting this god like being for the first time since ancient mythology and legends play on the fact that angry gods kill people just for kicks over nothing more than a wrong word.
Last edited by silvermoonlight on Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:35 am

This is perfect. I love it.

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Chuckman » Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:43 pm

Just came out of the movie. My first impression, which I’ll spoiler for safety’s sake

SPOILER: Show
Its a competent movie. When Snyder and Whedon meet the waves sort of cancel each other out. Visually, it has enough flair to avoid the common and correct criticism of Whedon that his direction looks TV quality, but the Snydery isn’t excessive. So there’s shots that aren’t dripping with overwrought style for no reason and the use of slow mo is actually effective. (Its used to convey a sense of super speed but used judiciously enough to feel like it’s not padding the run time the way Snyder’s use often does)

The story is basic. The Fourth World is more hinted at than shown. Darkseid is mentioned once; if, like me, you’re going to watch on tenterhooks waiting for the cameo, relax, it’s not there.

It’s a very standard superhero movie. Superman has the best parts. He feels like Superman; he has human emotions without any godly brooding in slow motion to reverent music. The interactions between the team are fun and everyone has a distinct personality. Diana builds off her character in her solo movie. Barry is well established and fun. I think Arthur and Cyborg are shortchanged a bit and hopefully their solo movies rectify that.

There is a set up for another arc, but I won’t spoil it except to say that it doesn’t seem to involve the Fourth World.

They gave the King his own credit separate from the other creators out of respect, so props to that.

I expect a lot of critics slamming this movie. There’s nothing bad about it. There are no stupidities or glaring plot holes or head scratching dumb moments and it doesn’t feel compressed, but it’s a linear story that moves from beginning to end and the trend now is to hate fun because movies have to “justify” themselves so I expect a bunch of pretentious reviews slamming it in mush harsher terms than it deserves.

I expect also it will get a lot of hate for not being sufficiently dark and cynical.


I rate it the second best DCCU movie so far, ahead of Man of Steel and BVS/Suicide Squad.

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Postby El Squibbonator » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:09 pm

So here's something. Justice League isn't doing quite as well domestically as Wonder Woman, or even Suicide Squad. So far it's on track to earn about $100 million in its opening weekend (it's earned $96 million domestically so far, and the weekend isn't over yet). Internationally, it's another story, since it's grossed over $50 million in China in its opening weekend there, for a worldwide opening weekend total of $285 million. That's still higher than Man of Steel, which opened to $197 million in 2013.
Reliable sources have informed me that Justice League needs to earn between $600 and $700 million to break even. If it has legs like Man of Steel--which I think is likely given its similar reception-- this should be doable, since that would give it a gross over $650 million. But it would still be considered a disappointment, just as Man of Steel and Batman vs Superman were.
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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Ray » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:13 am

At this point? DC should just freaking reboot. But they aren't going to.

Not even Zack Snyder fans wanted this JL, I would've bought presale tickets the second they were up if WB didn't cut down a third of the movie and brought Whedon to bring some jokes and nothing more.

Not only did they fail to appeal to the audience that hated BvS and MoS but they also lost the smaller much more dedicated audience that actually liked their first movies. Basically one half of the potential audience feels Whedon and Johns couldn't 'save' the movie, the other half feels WB's meddling ruined what could have been a good movie or at least a more coherent one. Literally no one won with this situation. Yeah, Snyders original movie might have been hated but at least it would have committed to what they had in mind before they moved away from it.

Now the literal billion dollar question here is. . . where does DC go from here?

Marvel is going to be releasing three movies in 2018.
Fox is going to be releasing three movies in 2018.
DC is going to be releasing ONE(Aquaman). and it's going be released in DECEMBER.

I can say with COMPLETE confidence the Marvel brand is gonna have a monopoly on the entire Superhero genre until the end of time. By the time DC finally gets the lead out, or reboots, or uses Flashpoint to establish the Multiverse so they can have Standalone. The brand will have been too damaged or the Superhero Bubble will have popped.

You know me. I've been an apologist for Zack's movies and the DCEU. and I think the attacks on him, his personal beliefs (and how they may have impacted the story) have been completely unwarranted. and I thought there still was reason to be optimistic. But after the mess of JL? Ugh. I just don't know guys I just don't know.

This article from cracked I think sums up how I feel.


Yes, (BVS) was mostly dreary, like a comic book filtered through the second verse of a My Chemical Romance song. And even some of the action scenes, which would be thrilling in a different movie, seem weighted down by the insistence that no one be having any fun at all under penalty of death -- or worse, recasting. However, the fist-pumping nihilism only enhances some scenes, like when Wonder Woman "debuts," accompanied by shrieking music, and proceeds to kick all of the ass in the area. After watching Zack Snyder and Bruce Wayne explain Nietzsche to me for two hours, it made it all the more thrilling when such an exciting "CHUG CHUG CHUG" moment was dropped in front of our faces.

It's a Jaegerbomb approach to superheroes and grim philosophy. And while it's not my preferred way of seeing these characters, I can, in a weird way, appreciate it.

Now we have a Justice League film which, from how it's been described, seems like a combination of Snyder's visuals and Joss Whedon's dialogue and character moments. And from what critics have said about it, that's not a very good combination. And it was never going to be. There's this absurd, prevailing idea that you can take a movie and somehow improve it by halfheartedly changing its genre. Didn't we already learn that this doesn't work from Suicide Squad, which was changed from a dark film into a tonally inconsistent DC Comics Family Vacation?

Instead of whatever tone Zack Snyder intended, Justice League will now have two battling for superiority. Imagine if you made a steak. People might disagree about whether or not it's a good steak, but it's a steak that you cooked. And then someone says, "You know what would go good on that steak? Skittles."

Yeah, comedy and odd sentimentality can work in a superhero film. The Marvel Cinematic Universe has shown us as much, and before that, Sam Raimi's Spider-Man films were just as goofy as they were exciting. But none of those movies started out as fundamentally different things. Guardians Of The Galaxy wasn't all sobs and boo-hoos before James Gunn decided that it needed some classic rock. Thor: Ragnarok wasn't a parade of mascara tears before Taika Waititi plugged some jokes into it.

Also, have you read Whedon's Wonder Woman script? There are other directors who exist, Warner Bros.

We'll probably never know if Snyder's pure Justice League was any good. But even if it wasn't a masterpiece, I'd prefer it over this method. Even if it was just Batman sobbing over his dead parents for two hours.


The only thing I know for certain is this. the Matt Reeves Batman movie is probably going to be a Standalone w/o the DCEU, probably with a new actor because Affleck got screwed over. So now, like with the Dark Knight Trilogy, Like with BVS, Warner is going to fall back into it's old habits. Putting all their hopes and dreams and efforts on BATMAN and letting the rest of their cinematic properties go hang.

JL may have been a 'competent' movie. But that's not what people wanted from a JL movie. . . and now unless theres a reboot (which we know ISN'T going to happen because they've already put too much time and effort into this_We're never going to get that. The brands been too damaged. Unless they put it on the shelf and wait for the heat to die down? The damage is only gonna get worse.

I give up. . . All hail the Marvel MAster race.
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Postby Chuckman » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:35 am

Snyder does deserve some credit. His DCU films fail to answer the questions they raise, but at they least raise them. There's a sense that they at least want the audience to feel something, unlike, say, The Dark Knight Rises, which resented the audience for forcing it to exist after the director said everything he felt needed saying in the predecessor. Many of the faults lie with the script.

On some level Snyder needs to be appreciated, especially for Man of Steel, because he was trying to tell an interesting story arc through these movies, but he simply isn't good enough, and didn't have a good enough script, to pull it off.

We already know from Superman Returns that it's very easy to make a weird tone-deaf Superman movie that fits neither our time nor the time it's trying to recreate.

He is not a visionary. He makes things look pretty, when he's properly restrained, but even at his best he suffers from excesses that drag down his work. This is not an appraisal of him as a human being, it's a critique of his work. I think I mentioned earlier in the thread how he only sees the visual aspects of storytelling and reduces his filmmaking efforts to that and that alone. He reduces things to looking cool. He made Leonidas yell when he's supposed to be quiet and restrained.

The Cracked author is right. The Wonder Woman scenes are the only part of BvS that actually gets superheroing and the superhero concept. She's such a breath of fresh air -even though her character in BvS doesn't make much sense- that it elevates the rest of the movie and really pumped people up for her solo run, which delivered.

I get that you, Ray, want superhero movies that are dark and mature, as you define it.I don't get why and I don't want to argue it with you. The problem with these DC movies is that they weren't "dark" out of any kind of artistic sensibility. They were dark because an executive ordered it so, because it would differentiate them from Marvel (which will probably go a darker and more stylish now that Girlpower McFeet is away from its flagship). There was no purpose in it, they weren't trying to say something. They saw that Marvel is one way so they wanted to be the other way, and the hired the guy who directed a mediocre Watchmen adaptation to direct a Superman movie because, hey, that's dark, right? Let's see if we can get some guys from the Nolan Batman movies to put their names on it, people liked those!

They had all kinds of opportunities.

They could have put a 'showrunner' in charge of their development effort.
They could have brought someone over from the comics side of the organization to do it.
They could have shopped around for directors with a vision, rather than picking a vision and selecting a director to execute it.
They could have set their Superman movie in the 1930s as a period piece.
They could have made a Superman movie with no origin story.
They could have made a Superman movie with a 'ground up' view.
They could have introduced a Batman who isn't a mentally ill loner who hates his entire life.
They could have made a fresh start with an existing, popular iteration of Batman; they could have said 'we want to be more grounded and realistic and have a serious, meditative Superman movie; let's introduce him in Nolan's established world with JGL active as Batman and see how a god from the sky fits into that realistic setting.
They could have hired a scriptwriter who loves the characters and wants to do them justice.

They could have done all these things, but they chose a cheap, lazy, thoughtless route. People like to rag on the Marvel movies for having a house style and being a packaged commercial product, but those criticisms mostly come from joyless people who are offended by others having the wrong kind of fun. The Marvel movies take risks. They have color and life and do wild fun things and aren't afraid to show off how crazy comics can be.

After seeing how lifeless and flat they made our first cinematic taste of the Fourth World, would you think that the DCCU would ever do something as bold as make a feature film with Ego the Living Planet?

If you want to understand the DCCU, listen to the JL film score. It's a mishmash of Zimmer's uninspired wall of sound crap, the only DCCU theme that's actually memorable, and constant repetition of Elfman's old Batman theme and Williams' old Superman theme, like the movie is begging you to enjoy it. You love these characters, just give me a pass! isn't this cool like those other times they were cool?

It's a shame, really, because these films have so much going for them. The had great casts (although, thinking on it, I think Ciarin Hinds was wasted on Steppenwolf- he'd be a great Darkseid) and probably the best on-screen Superman ever.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:51 am

We all wanted DC to be good. I seriously can't imagine anyone actively rooting against Superman movies. I couldn't tell you what I would give for a really good Superman movie, just shy of making one myself. (Superman becomes Public Domain in the year 2033. Expect me to make an awesome adaptation when that happens.) I mean, Batman and Superman are the most iconic superheroes of all time. The fact that the recent movies featuring them are, at best, faltering to get started is quite embarrassing. DC's literally been doing screen adaptations of their best characters for the longest in the business. (Dating back to the 1940's for both Batman and Superman.) In that light, I am genuinely surprised and somewhat dismayed that they are constantly overshadowed by Marvel these days.

And, to be completely fair, 10 years ago we were unsure that a Justice League movie would ever be green-lit in the first place. So the fact that the market as a whole has moved to where films like Justice League and The Avengers are even being made on a large scale is actually very encouraging. Hopefully DC can more meaningfully capitalize on this in the future.

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Postby Ray » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:10 am

Coulda Shoulda doesn't matter at this point the brand has been damaged so much that even if they can make a good movie, nobody's going to go see it cuz they've been burned four out of five times before. And when the high profile franchise for your characters is as poor received as it is it's going to Ripple out and effect the sales for the comics and everything else. . .

Like I said at this point it is sad and it's embarrassing that DC just can't make things work. Especially considering superheroes wouldn't exist without these characters. Their legacy and iconic status are just impossible to get right in today's world.

Who knows maybe in six or seven years Warner will get around to making a Superman Red Son Or Kingdom Come movie that will be the kind of Superman movie I want to see. But until then? DC's just going to keep seeing itself dragged through the mud. . . And Marvel will keep rubbing the success in our faces. Until the mouse eventually has a monopoly on everything.

And keep dreaming freaky Superman etc. is never becoming public domain. As long as Disney owns the right to Mickey Mouse, and keeps paying lobbyists Millions upon millions of dollars to extend the terms of copyright. Superman is never going to have a movie about him done right.

And really I feel bad for poor Zack Snyder all of this is being late at his feet. I disagree with chuck on Watchman I thought the movie adaptation was great. . . The Golden Age Aesthetic would have done wonders for DC that have been doneright

But it wasn't done right and and it will never be done right ever again not until I'm dead.

BUT. With two of the most critically reviled movies in a row? I don't think he'll ever direct a movie ever again. Which is a shame because I do want to see more work from the guy. Joel Schumacher only has directed one big movie since his f*** up of a Batman movie, and he actually had a pretty good track record before then.

I hope Zack can come back from this but he'll be a pariah for decades after this. It's one thing to fail with a movie it's another thing to fail the setup of an entire Cinematic Universe.

Assuming he even wants to make a movie again after what happened to his family and all the s*** he's gotten from fans.
SPOILER: Show
Image
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Postby MuscleRobo » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:00 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote: ...Superman becomes Public Domain in the year 2033.


Micky Mouse becomes public domain in 2023. I can see disney working hard like they did with Sonny Bono in the 70's to make the Copyright Term Extension Act.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:42 pm

Nope. I’m making a Superman Meets Mickey Mouse movie that year, and nobody can stop me.

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Postby Chuckman » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:45 pm

I have never seen the extended cut of the Watchmen film so I can't comment on its quality.

The theatrical version is boring. It doesn't do anything interesting with the material. It's like if they made a House of Leaves movie and only adapted the Navidson Record portion of the book.

The liberties it does take are annoying at best. The one thing I like about it is the way they updated some of the costumes to work on screen. Putting Ozymandias in a Schumacher Batsuit was an excellent choice.

To really get a Watchmen movie done in the spirit of the comic you need two things:

1. A decade or so of six superhero movies a year or so

2. A visionary director who can take apart film the way the comic book takes apart comic books

Actually three things

3. A powerful magician to blunt sorcerous attacks from Alan Moore during the production

The upcoming Watchmen adaptation has a lot more potential. I'll be disappointed if they don't work a blue sky beam shooting into a portal into it. There's plenty of nihilism in the world as-is, so I'd update it to a modern setting and aim it more at Marvel than DC. Make it a movie/show about movies that touches on the nature of the medium.

Also since DC owns the rights anyway I'd make it with the Charlton characters they were created to be expys of.

My main suggestion for DCCU stuff going forward:

Drop the CU part of it. Make standalone stories. Keep cast members if they're good. Fuck continuity. Adapt different stories from different eras. Make period pieces. Make the films a survey of the DC universe. Give us a Green Lantern with John Stewart set in space, an Action Scientiest Batman, a populist Superman in 1939. Fuck it, make an COE/Identify/Final Crisis trilogy. Give us DC movies that aren't origin stories or based on a Frank Miller comic.

Seriously, what is it with origins?

In most films it's considered best practice to avoid an 'origin story' and tell the story as close to the end as you can. Compare a typical Batman movie to the James Bond franchise or Indiana Jones.

They made what, 50 movies before doing anything more to explore Bond's background beyond dropping hints? The third and should-have-been final Indiana Jones is the only one that goes much into his origins.

Take a cue from these and leave the nerd obsession with everything fitting into a fictional historical timeline to comic books where it (doesn't, cough) belong and start making good movies about superheroes instead of trying to make good superhero movies.

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Postby Kazuki_Fuse » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:08 pm

Finished the Netflix series of The Punisher. Hard to say what I think of it. Lot's of stuff I loved. Lot's I didn't. I realize that since Netflix ordered thirteen episodes they needed a bunch of subplots but it really would have worked better just focusing on the Frank/Micro storyline and trimmed down to eight or nine episodes. I really like Jon Bernthal as Frank Castle though. Some great fight scenes, especially in the final three episodes. My biggest gripe would be the military conspiracy angle.
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Frank's family shouldn't have died because the CIA was trying to keep him silent. The whole character of the Punisher works best when his family died in a senseless act of random violence.
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Postby El Squibbonator » Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:24 pm

Well, the Avengers: Infinity War trailer is out and it is. . . well, it's certainly a trailer.

Speaking of which, the rumored budget for Infinity War is $1 BILLION. To earn that back, they'd have to be one of the highest-grossing movies of all time, up there with Avatar!
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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:56 pm

Well, it's the combined budget for Avengers: Infinity War & Avengers 4 cause they're shooting back-to-back so there's very little financial risk for Marvel. These movies are going to be huger than huge. Plus, Marvel's best trait continues to be marketing as they hype these two movies up as "The End of Everything For the MCU" so anyone who has paid to see a movie since 2008 is probably going to go and see at least one of these in theaters.
Of course all the "End of MCU" is just marketing bullshit when they've publicly admitted they've already laid out what their "First (FIRST) 20 Post Avengers 4 movies are going to be & they have Spider-Man: Homecoming Was Bad But You're Paying to See A Sequel Anyways scheduled to come out a mere 60 days after "The Final Avengers Movie" drops.

So it's less of a "Conclusion" and more of a "We're ready to drop a few of the actors who are costing us too much damn money because they've wisely upped their contracts".

Movie looks fine. I'm most interested about the technicals - both movies have been ENTIRELY shot with Arri Alexa's new IMAX cameras (Civil War used them for the big Airport fight only) and the footage does look nicer than usual - but Bucky Barnes' continued presence is going to drag things down for me. The spectacle of it all should be nice. I'm sure I'll enjoy the movie the one time in theaters and never revisit again like I do ALL the MCU movies.

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Postby silvermoonlight » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:04 am

View Original PostEl Squibbonator wrote:Well, the Avengers: Infinity War trailer is out and it is. . . well, it's certainly a trailer.

Speaking of which, the rumored budget for Infinity War is $1 BILLION. To earn that back, they'd have to be one of the highest-grossing movies of all time, up there with Avatar!


All I can say is if they really spent $1 billion on Avengers Infinity Wars it better be a really good movie because if this flops that's gonna seriously hurt the studio right in pocket and could end up being one of the worst flops in the history of cinema... :cringe:
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:25 am

Like Gendo’sPapa said, that’s most likely the budget for the two movies combined.

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:26 pm

Not likely. It is.

They've also been continuously shooting both movies since January of this year & won't finish filming until late Summer 2018. 18+ months of consecutive shooting. When Infinity War hits theaters next year they'll still be in the process of filming the second half of the Two-Film Movie.

Either way, there's zero chance of Marvel/Disney not making a profit on these movies. As long as it's not a turkey, Infinity War should easily be able to outsell Age of Ultron at the global box office (Ultron did $1.4 billion) and then that means whatever Avengers 4: Title To Be Released After Infinity War makes at the box office is PURE profit. I could easily see Avengers 4 tie or surpass the original Avengers ($1.5 billion) to be the highest grossing movie in the MCU.

So theatrical alone Disney/Marvel should be anticipating close to $2 billion in profit.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:12 am

Holy shit, that almost makes me jealous.

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Ray » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:13 pm

I don't usually agree with Campea. But after Justice League? I COMPLETELY agree with him.

5 Reasons WB Should Abandon The Current DCEU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5t4ik5I_gE

The problem is with a Cinematic Universe if you make a mistake or have a bad storyline plot line or character? You're pretty much stuck with that mistake for the rest of your Cinematic Universes existence. And unless it's a minor mistake that you can address in later films it's going to snowball into much bigger problems down the road

I agree with him in this regard.

"REBOOT SHOULD NOT BE A DIRTY WORD!"
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:20 pm

Almost saw Justice League on Friday, but my hot date had to cancel at the last minute due to work and I wasn’t about to watch it without an attractive distraction handy.


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