C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby The Cruel » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:23 am

Think of Asuka like this guy C.T.:

Asuka:

SPOILER: Show
Image


=

Punisher:

SPOILER: Show
Image


Having PTSD through war? CHECK
Having PTSD through family? CHECK
Being supposed to die violently but survived? CHECK
Being violent herself? CHECK
Fighting a war without end? CHECK
Has a black and white morality? CHECK
Doesn't have the best relationships? CHECK
Doesn't care and keeps on doing what she does? CHECK
Has a skull on her clothes? CHECK

And one more thing:

If she would be bad, she would kill innocents. If she would be good, then she shouldn't have killed in the first place.

In the beginning I wasn't sure about Asuka too, but as the years went on, I accepted her already.

Until Final is out, who 'll know what she can become and what she'll do?

The rest is history.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:05 pm

Of course some of that is Shikinami only.




I can't remember if we established whether C.T.1290 watched dub or sub. My first viewing I began with the dub and felt that Asuka was being played as a stereotypical strident redhead, but changing over to subs around the mid-point, my estimation of her character changed quite considerably. Episode 12, in particular, even though watched with dub, was one where at the end, I felt that things were starting to fall into place for her -- and then, with subs, and the significant change in voicing, watched with increasing pity as things just came tumbling down instead.

And in the end, while the series gives everyone the Gendou GOOD END™ , I came out of EoE feeling that Asuka had ended up the innocent victim of everything that had gone on before; at that point I just had to get that out of my system in the form of fix-fics that gave her a somewhat better outcome.

I know I've linked my essay on "the Asuka in my mind" early in this thread, but I wonder if CT might find the Asuka-as-main-character narrative form somewhat more digestible as a view into how I see her tick, with the stresses upon her slightly educed.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:58 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:You've been given two examples in the past few posts.

You mean the part where she snuck into Shinji's hospital room and caressed Shinji's face at the end?
We saw her caress Shinji; and beyond that you seem to be once again denying the possibility of growth and change that you haven't already seen (and some that you have!). Also "planning" personal development is a mighty cold way to look at it.

Well, the reason I may have been denying all that is because of happened between the two characters, it's hard to see them getting along soon on even the most realistic grounds. Sure, it might take them years to resolve some of their issues, but at the present time, things are going to be hard for them. And due to Asuka's last line "How disgusting", she could be stuck with that same personality for all I know. In my view, it might be hard for Asuka to break out of that old habit of hers, and I'm not sure what kind of changes she would made with the opportunity given to her. As for being cold on planning personal development, is it because of how I assumed that Asuka wouldn't make some self improvements anytime soon? Even if it would be possible for her to do?
TheCarkolum wrote:Not for the way she treated others, but for the way she sees herself.

So she did some self reflection. But that doesn't mean she's not the least bit sorry for how she treated others after coming back from Instrumentality, does it?
I don't understand you. You try to figure out whether Asuka is bad or good, but now it seems you firmly believe it's a mean person?

That's what her personality suggests. Especially at the first impression, which stuck with me for a long time.
However, I find curious that you feel that way towards Asuka and not towards Gendo, for example. I mean, he has done far worse things than Asuka has, and he is loved by many fans. So, why this attitude towards a teenager and not a grown-up man?

Actually, I see Gendo as the villain here, along with SEELE. He is the kind of person I would have the pleasure of punching in the face before pummeling him to the ground. Or better yet, in some of my fantasies, have him and SEELE...assassinated by my hands as a way to put a stop to their ambition. (Twisted, I know.)
Asuka is nowhere near to their level, which is a good thing. I just don't appreciate people who are mean to others for almost no reason, like she did with Shinji. I'm sure she would be better if she were a little nicer towards people, and be genuine about it. But I suppose that was the purpose of Instrumentality. If she did end up becoming a better person, all I can say is "Congratulations!". I would've like to see that after the end to confirm that. But if it was just implied, I guess that would do for now.
Mr. Tines wrote:I can't remember if we established whether C.T.1290 watched dub or sub.

I just watched the dubbed. And I only saw the series at least twice now. And EOE just one time. And I think because of that, my knowledge on all of it and its characters are not quite as...full as some others on here, so I kinda stuck with my first impression of them.

I also checked out the link at the bottom, and came across an EVA fanfic crossover with a particular CLAMP work. I just finished the first chapter, and so far, Asuka is the same I thought of her to be in the series. But it seems like I have a way to go before I can finish it, so I'll keep up at it. Kind of enjoying it, by the way.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:24 am

C.T.1290 wrote:And due to Asuka's last line "How disgusting", she could be stuck with that same personality for all I know. In my view, it might be hard for Asuka to break out of that old habit of hers, and I'm not sure what kind of changes she would made with the opportunity given to her. As for being cold on planning personal development, is it because of how I assumed that Asuka wouldn't make some self improvements anytime soon? Even if it would be possible for her to do?

Have you read any fanfics which explore the possibilities for Asuka to develop further after EoE? The obvious recommendation is Bagheera's Ghosts of Evangelion, which doesn't shy away from the sort of questions you ask, but shows a convincing path of development which brings out the aspects of her character that other people are acknowledging - it is paced over her entire lifetime, as well, for further realism.

As for Asuka's last line, I have to confess that I pay it little attention. Firstly, the Japanese expression "Kimochi Warui" that it translates is far more nuanced (and thus unclear!), so putting too much weight on that English phrase is dangerous. Then there's the fact that it was not written as an organic part of the plot development, but improvised by the VA, under guidance from Anno, because she was not happy with his original. Sometimes a last-minute patch-up can be a defining inspiration, but more often it is just a patch-up, and honestly that's how I regard it here. I would have preferred silence, leaving the viewer to ponder the significance of Asuka's caress and Shinji's tears without distraction.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:05 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Have you read any fanfics which explore the possibilities for Asuka to develop further after EoE?

I've read quite a few of them; The Catalyst by Jcmoorehead, You are (not) at fault by MisterHalt, Scar Tissue by Deathbringer, The 2nd Try by JimmyWolk, and some others that are one shots, and some I can't quite remember. I think some of them did a pretty good job at developing the characters and their relationships, although, realistically, some of them might have rushed things a little; like Asuka being nice to Shinji, which seems like days, weeks, or months after coming back from Instrumentality. And then there's her getting a little lovey-dovey all over him, which may feel a little out of character, which has me asking myself "is this something Asuka would ever do?", as nice as it is. And in some other fics, it has Asuka continue being mean to Shinji throughout. I personally think that these are merely fan's speculation on could happen to the two characters after the end. While some are a little closer than others to what might actually happen, some others might just be some wish fulfillment, as preferable as they might be. So because of so many viewpoints, it's hard to tell what Asuka might actually do, and what part of her characteristics are actually true.

As for Ghosts of Evangelion, I think I only read the first chapter so far, and still have a long way to go.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:56 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:So because of so many viewpoints, it's hard to tell what Asuka might actually do, and what part of her characteristics are actually true.

That's rather the point though, isn't it? It demonstrates that your rather fixed pessimistic view of her really is not the only view possible, which should give you hope.

As for Ghosts, do persist with it; I think it really is pretty much one of the few at the top of the heap for realism and being true to the characters as presented by the series and EoE.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:35 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:I just watched the dubbed. And I only saw the series at least twice now. And EOE just one time.
The voice acting in the US dub is far less nuanced than the original, if only because of not having the same director. Even if you don't hear anything other than a clattering of mouth noises in Japanese, the tone of voice is still there, and it's distinct to the level that you see the characters in a rather different light.

That also comes out when the respective VAs are asked about their characters, and their answers to the same question are almost never the same.


I also checked out the link at the bottom, and came across an EVA fanfic crossover with a particular CLAMP work.
That's correct -- that's what I meant by "in narrative form". The original set-up I feel has enough of a "why are we all in this handcart and where are we going?" that a significant kick is needed to get off that particular down-hill track while exploring the characters.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Irohas » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:09 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:That's rather the point though, isn't it? It demonstrates that your rather fixed pessimistic view of her really is not the only view possible, which should give you hope.

As for Ghosts, do persist with it; I think it really is pretty much one of the few at the top of the heap for realism and being true to the characters as presented by the series and EoE.


Yes, yes pretty much everything pwhodges is saying. It's all endless possibilities, C.T.1290 the conclusion you've reached on Asuka is just as much of a possibility as them falling in love and having a healthy relationship. We're only shown mostly negative interactions between Shinji and Asuka, so the few good moments they share like Asuka caressing Shinji's cheek have soo much impact because it's a rare thing that we may have never expected from them ! Their mostly toxic relationship may make them feel like they should never be in a relationship together, but at the same time it can also fuel their drive at finding happiness with each other after understanding one another. Change is one of the hardest things for a lot of us, so to see those glimmers of hope/change means so much.

While it's true that we're never shown positive changes to Shinji/Asuka for the majority of the series, the few positive changes that we see outweigh the bad entirely because they are things we don't expect from their characters. But judging Asuka as incapable of positive change/growth because of her mostly negative traits is the view you have that I'm hoping to help you see differently. Some things people do are unforgivable and unforgettable, but it's never too late for someone to change for the better, and only the people going through those things can decide whether or not they can continue any type of relationship with each other in spite of all the good and bad.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:59 pm

^Yes, it is rare of them to show the more positive sides of them. And while that is nice to see, I still can't help but feel that sometimes the number of the negatives can outweigh the positives in terms of quantity. But I think I'd be willing to give them a chance of finding happiness through progression, even though I don't get to see it for myself officially(that's what fanfiction is for).

And after some time of thinking, going over and reflecting on some of my posts, and regarding some responses in this thread, I have a question to ask you all.

Have I really been so harsh on Asuka?

I know in a majority of my posts, I've been rather harsh on her and only focused on her negative traits, believing that to be her true self, how she actually is. When someone attempts to point out the more positive things about her, I wasn't totally convinced she would actually be that kind of person, so I tended to disregard them. And I know my rather harsh judgement on her would be considered inexcusable, asking if she was deserving of sympathy in my earlier threads, especially if she were a real person or there were people like her. Speaking of her being a real person, I wondered at one point on what she would say or think if she saw the threads I made regarding her.
I think that if Asuka never had that trauma and still had her mother, things would have been undoubtedly different for her, and the same could be said for Shinji, as is evident in the final episode where he imagined the world without the EVAs. Not sure if this was some fantasy made by Shinji, or if it was some alternative of what it could have been.
It would have been nice to see how things turn out between Shinji and Asuka and what improvements they have made after instrumentality. But I guess that's all up to us to decide, as I'm sure that was what the creator intended.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:35 am

Character development is a thing.

All three protagonists undergo significant character growth in EOE and hence we see them showcase their improvement in their respective endings.

Asuka in the show hated herself, Asuka in the movie did not.

Asuka in the show responded to affection violently, Asuka in the movie responded to someone trying to kill her with affection.

She grew and is now a better person who is likely to be more caring towards others as she now values herself.
The "how disgusting" was a specific response to Shinji's er, expressions of attraction. It symbolizes that the pain they've caused each other won't magically go away. This is also symbolized by Shinji crying. However again, that's ok, because Shinji has decided he's willing to face and accept pain, and Asuka has just shown she's willing to show affection for others even as they are causing her pain(getting choked can hurt you know).

If the intent here was to show they're in the same place they were before, Anno wouldn't show us their personal growth, and he wouldn't end the movie with a scene at the end showing growth in how they interact with each other.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:58 pm

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:She grew and is now a better person who is likely to be more caring towards others as she now values herself.

I'm still not convinced of that. We'd never got to see Instrumentality from her view, so it's hard to tell what she had learned or what changes and improvements she had made unto herself, and what she could make unto herself.
If the intent here was to show they're in the same place they were before, Anno wouldn't show us their personal growth, and he wouldn't end the movie with a scene at the end showing growth in how they interact with each other.

Yeah, but to me, the changes seem subtle, almost as if they're never there. We can't really see it specifically, so it almost hard to tell. If Asuka did made some small improvements of herself, it's still not enough to strike as "She'll become a better person." "Asuka can be nice to people." "She actually cares about Shinji." Ect. Because of the impression she left on me, I still find it hard to believe that she can actually be 'nice' to people. If she were, she's gonna have to do a lot better than what she did in the series, and I expect a 110% out of her to do so.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:07 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:I'm still not convinced of that. We'd never got to see Instrumentality from her view, so it's hard to tell what she had learned or what changes and improvements she had made unto herself, and what she could make unto herself.

Why are you relying on instrumentality as the only source of evidence here?

This is Asuka at the end of the show:
episode-23/(3:21)
"I'm not worth anything Anymore"
episode-24/(2:41)
-> Tries to kill herself

Asuka before instrumentality:
https://youtu.be/0AY27gLWhtM?t=56s
"I don't want to die"
https://youtu.be/0AY27gLWhtM?t=1m57s
-> Defiantly fights against those who are literally trying to force everyone to commit suicide

Also, stating the obvious here, but notice how she's perceiving her mother in a vastly more positive light then she was here?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJ0doO3VFjc

It's not "hard to tell" at all. She's grown.

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:Yeah, but to me, the changes seem subtle

Subtle:
https://youtu.be/0AY27gLWhtM?t=1m39s
View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote: "Asuka can be nice to people." "She actually cares about Shinji." Ect. Because of the impression she left on me, I still find it hard to believe that she can actually be 'nice' to people. If she were, she's gonna have to do a lot better than what she did in the series, and I expect a 110% out of her to do so.


Pay more attention bro...

-> is visbly moved when Shinji almost goes overboard to saver her:
episode-10/(19:53)
-> Endangers her life to protect Shinji and Rei:
-> Passes on an expensive steak dinner to help out Misato
-> Passes on steak dinner to get Rei out of her shell
-> tells Shinji depending on the validation of his a-hole father is stupid
episode-12(21:16)
-> Compliments Shinji and tries to get him to think better of himself
episode-15/(11:57)
-> Goes to the hospital room where Shinji is because, *gasp*, she cares about Shinji:
episode-16/(21:38)
-> Gets angry when she finds out her classmate is also an eva pilot:
episode-17/
-> Tries to tell Shinji the truth when everyone else is basically lying to him:
episode-18/
-> Gets angry that Shinji doesn't value himself:
episode-16/(2:07)

You have to really cherrypick here to arrive at the conclusion that she doesn't even have the capacity to care for people. We repeatedly see her show affection and concern for others throughout the show. She can't properly express herself though because her self-hatred prompts her to close herself from others.

Which is why it's a massive moment of character development when she decides she wants to live. That's why we get this:
https://youtu.be/pVeKyqV1jWU?t=2m5s

The self-loathing Asuka would have let herself be killed or would have violently defended herself.

The Asuka that sees the value in herself is capable of properly expressing her affection.

So, yea, she grew. She's a better person. It stands to reason that as both Shinji and Asuka have confronted the main personal issues that caused their relationship to collapse, their relationship by the end of EOE is on more solid footing.

Don't be baka brah.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:28 am

At the end of EoE Asuka is back where she was just before the bathtub. Her mother is gone, as is her role as pilot, after a final battle where she went down to ignominious defeat. And from instrumentality, where her appearances ranged from raging to passive-aggressive, the last we heard of her was "If I have to be with you I'd rather die."
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:59 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:At the end of EoE Asuka is back where she was just before the bathtub. Her mother is gone, as is her role as pilot, after a final battle where she went down to ignominious defeat.

Her mother was gone before her "ignominious defeat", You seem to be missing the metaphor the at field represents. That even when the ones we care about die, they live on with us.

That she sacrificed herself fighting against the end of life itself doesn't really show she's still the nihilistic girl we saw at the start. That she fought so fiercely is all we need to know this isn't the same Asuka who wanted to die.
View Original PostMr. Tines wrote: And from instrumentality, where her appearances ranged from raging to passive-aggressive, the last we heard of her was "If I have to be with you I'd rather die."

That's not the last time we see her. The last time we see her is when she shows Shenji affection in a scene titled "I need you". If Asuka was back to where she was in the bathtub, she'd let herself be killed or lash out violently. Instead she shows Shenji affection despite him literally hurting her. That's growth.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby anonymaus » Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:23 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:the last we heard of her was "If I have to be with you I'd rather die."

Her instrumentality scenes were full of denial.
Her final act was to respawn at his side and caress his face. These are not the actions of somebody who doesn't want to be with him.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:06 am

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:Her instrumentality scenes were full of denial.
Her final act was to respawn at his side and caress his face. These are not the actions of somebody who doesn't want to be with him.

:huh:

Character development is a thing?
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:58 am

To me, the character development in Asuka is insignificant for it to be something major. We see her caress Shinji's face, but then we see her express her disgust towards him once more, reverting back to her old self as we see her at the start of the series. I don't think Asuka is as kind as some people are making her out to be. True, there are a few examples during the series were she did a favor for some people before things went downhill, but to me, it isn't enough, nor is it good enough, for me to buy the fact that she can be a better person.

Has anyone ever thought that maybe having Asuka included in the show was a mistake? Because all she ever does is give people a bad time and make their life hell, like with Shinji for instance; she was nothing but bad luck to him, always finding a way to bring him down with every chance she gets just to secure her place as the top pilot. And not to mention that she was basically useless to NERV. She claims that she is the best pilot, but she's not. Her entire life has been a lie. The face she puts up is a lie. She is nothing but a big lie. When NERV no longer had a use for her when she can no longer pilot, why did they even bother to go back for her when they can just leave her there in that old apartment? I'm sure the majority of the cast would be better off without her. Because of the way she treats people, it's no wonder why the characters of the show hated her, and why the fans hate her.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Guy Nacks » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:41 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:To me, the character development in Asuka is insignificant for it to be something major. We see her caress Shinji's face, but then we see her express her disgust towards him once more, reverting back to her old self as we see her at the start of the series. I don't think Asuka is as kind as some people are making her out to be. True, there are a few examples during the series were she did a favor for some people before things went downhill, but to me, it isn't enough, nor is it good enough, for me to buy the fact that she can be a better person.

Has anyone ever thought that maybe having Asuka included in the show was a mistake? Because all she ever does is give people a bad time and make their life hell, like with Shinji for instance; she was nothing but bad luck to him, always finding a way to bring him down with every chance she gets just to secure her place as the top pilot. And not to mention that she was basically useless to NERV. She claims that she is the best pilot, but she's not. Her entire life has been a lie. The face she puts up is a lie. She is nothing but a big lie. When NERV no longer had a use for her when she can no longer pilot, why did they even bother to go back for her when they can just leave her there in that old apartment? I'm sure the majority of the cast would be better off without her. Because of the way she treats people, it's no wonder why the characters of the show hated her, and why the fans hate her.


This reads, to me, like “Asuka should have been aborted”- levels of hatred for a character.

She serves a purpose. She’s a good counterpoint for how Shinji deals with his issues, which are similar in nature. She’s also had a terrible childhood, so be sure to take that into account before you say things like “NERV/Section 2 should have let her die.”
Among the people who use the Internet, many are obtuse. Because they are locked in their rooms, they hang on to that vision which is spreading across the world. But this does not go beyond mere ‘data’. Data without analysis [thinking], which makes you think that you know everything. This complacency is nothing but a trap. Moreover, the sense of values that counters this notion is paralyzed by it.

And so we arrive at demagogy. - Hideaki Anno, 1996

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:46 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:nor is it good enough, for me to buy the fact that she can be a better person.

Do you have the same level of scepticism towards people you meet in real life and know as little about?
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:46 pm

Guy Nacks wrote:This reads, to me, like “Asuka should have been aborted”- levels of hatred for a character.

She serves a purpose. She’s a good counterpoint for how Shinji deals with his issues, which are similar in nature. She’s also had a terrible childhood, so be sure to take that into account before you say things like “NERV/Section 2 should have let her die.”

I'm aware of her childhood trauma, and that it is a root cause of her problems. But I find it barely excusable, and hard for me to sympathize with, for the way she treated others throughout her time. Maybe she was a bit of brat even before her mother decided to kill herself, maybe her mom neglected her even before the experiment had gone wrong. She could've found a way to resolve her problems and maybe even become a better person. But no, she chose to stay the same way as she is, a brat. Because under this brave and confidant exterior she puts up, it all boils down to who she really is; a brat.

Besides, what good can she do around other people? What could she possibly do for others to earn their respect, and maybe even make them like her?
pwhodges wrote:Do you have the same level of scepticism towards people you meet in real life and know as little about?

It's true that I don't really have much of good view on people in our reality, mainly because of the many bad things that our people had done throughout history;
SPOILER: Show
gangs, murderers, rapists, thieves,
hate groups, corrupt politicians and bureaucrats, animal and child abusers, terrorists, extremists, dictators, bullies, and any form of criminals and delinquents.

And these things have been going on for hundreds, even thousands of years. No matter how much time has passed, how much things have changed, people end up doing the same things, over and over again.

And in a case of Asuka, she had many opportunities and chances to change herself for the better. And yet, she chose to waste those potentials. People had also tried to be nice to her, but instead, she spat in their faces. And it's her attitude that drove everyone away, why she's always alone. She gave people the impression that left her hated and avoided. And it's her stubbornness that left her unable to change for the good. And it's why she's remorseless, unrepentant, and far too arrogant to see the errors of her way. Why, I bet she won't be able to say sorry to those she hurt, and even find ways to make up for her past mistakes. Because nice isn't in her dictionary, because it might actually kill her to do something nice for people for a change.

She could look up to me and shout "Save me!", and I'll whisper, "No.", the same way as she did to Shinji.
“This is the way”-The Mandalorian


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