C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby The Cruel » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:23 am

Think of Asuka like this guy C.T.:

Asuka:

SPOILER: Show
Image


=

Punisher:

SPOILER: Show
Image


Having PTSD through war? CHECK
Having PTSD through family? CHECK
Being supposed to die violently but survived? CHECK
Being violent herself? CHECK
Fighting a war without end? CHECK
Has a black and white morality? CHECK
Doesn't have the best relationships? CHECK
Doesn't care and keeps on doing what she does? CHECK
Has a skull on her clothes? CHECK

And one more thing:

If she would be bad, she would kill innocents. If she would be good, then she shouldn't have killed in the first place.

In the beginning I wasn't sure about Asuka too, but as the years went on, I accepted her already.

Until Final is out, who 'll know what she can become and what she'll do?

The rest is history.
I carry out things right to the end. No. Matter. What.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:05 pm

Of course some of that is Shikinami only.




I can't remember if we established whether C.T.1290 watched dub or sub. My first viewing I began with the dub and felt that Asuka was being played as a stereotypical strident redhead, but changing over to subs around the mid-point, my estimation of her character changed quite considerably. Episode 12, in particular, even though watched with dub, was one where at the end, I felt that things were starting to fall into place for her -- and then, with subs, and the significant change in voicing, watched with increasing pity as things just came tumbling down instead.

And in the end, while the series gives everyone the Gendou GOOD END™ , I came out of EoE feeling that Asuka had ended up the innocent victim of everything that had gone on before; at that point I just had to get that out of my system in the form of fix-fics that gave her a somewhat better outcome.

I know I've linked my essay on "the Asuka in my mind" early in this thread, but I wonder if CT might find the Asuka-as-main-character narrative form somewhat more digestible as a view into how I see her tick, with the stresses upon her slightly educed.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:58 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:You've been given two examples in the past few posts.

You mean the part where she snuck into Shinji's hospital room and caressed Shinji's face at the end?
We saw her caress Shinji; and beyond that you seem to be once again denying the possibility of growth and change that you haven't already seen (and some that you have!). Also "planning" personal development is a mighty cold way to look at it.

Well, the reason I may have been denying all that is because of happened between the two characters, it's hard to see them getting along soon on even the most realistic grounds. Sure, it might take them years to resolve some of their issues, but at the present time, things are going to be hard for them. And due to Asuka's last line "How disgusting", she could be stuck with that same personality for all I know. In my view, it might be hard for Asuka to break out of that old habit of hers, and I'm not sure what kind of changes she would made with the opportunity given to her. As for being cold on planning personal development, is it because of how I assumed that Asuka wouldn't make some self improvements anytime soon? Even if it would be possible for her to do?
TheCarkolum wrote:Not for the way she treated others, but for the way she sees herself.

So she did some self reflection. But that doesn't mean she's not the least bit sorry for how she treated others after coming back from Instrumentality, does it?
I don't understand you. You try to figure out whether Asuka is bad or good, but now it seems you firmly believe it's a mean person?

That's what her personality suggests. Especially at the first impression, which stuck with me for a long time.
However, I find curious that you feel that way towards Asuka and not towards Gendo, for example. I mean, he has done far worse things than Asuka has, and he is loved by many fans. So, why this attitude towards a teenager and not a grown-up man?

Actually, I see Gendo as the villain here, along with SEELE. He is the kind of person I would have the pleasure of punching in the face before pummeling him to the ground. Or better yet, in some of my fantasies, have him and SEELE...assassinated by my hands as a way to put a stop to their ambition. (Twisted, I know.)
Asuka is nowhere near to their level, which is a good thing. I just don't appreciate people who are mean to others for almost no reason, like she did with Shinji. I'm sure she would be better if she were a little nicer towards people, and be genuine about it. But I suppose that was the purpose of Instrumentality. If she did end up becoming a better person, all I can say is "Congratulations!". I would've like to see that after the end to confirm that. But if it was just implied, I guess that would do for now.
Mr. Tines wrote:I can't remember if we established whether C.T.1290 watched dub or sub.

I just watched the dubbed. And I only saw the series at least twice now. And EOE just one time. And I think because of that, my knowledge on all of it and its characters are not quite as...full as some others on here, so I kinda stuck with my first impression of them.

I also checked out the link at the bottom, and came across an EVA fanfic crossover with a particular CLAMP work. I just finished the first chapter, and so far, Asuka is the same I thought of her to be in the series. But it seems like I have a way to go before I can finish it, so I'll keep up at it. Kind of enjoying it, by the way.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:24 am

C.T.1290 wrote:And due to Asuka's last line "How disgusting", she could be stuck with that same personality for all I know. In my view, it might be hard for Asuka to break out of that old habit of hers, and I'm not sure what kind of changes she would made with the opportunity given to her. As for being cold on planning personal development, is it because of how I assumed that Asuka wouldn't make some self improvements anytime soon? Even if it would be possible for her to do?

Have you read any fanfics which explore the possibilities for Asuka to develop further after EoE? The obvious recommendation is Bagheera's Ghosts of Evangelion, which doesn't shy away from the sort of questions you ask, but shows a convincing path of development which brings out the aspects of her character that other people are acknowledging - it is paced over her entire lifetime, as well, for further realism.

As for Asuka's last line, I have to confess that I pay it little attention. Firstly, the Japanese expression "Kimochi Warui" that it translates is far more nuanced (and thus unclear!), so putting too much weight on that English phrase is dangerous. Then there's the fact that it was not written as an organic part of the plot development, but improvised by the VA, under guidance from Anno, because she was not happy with his original. Sometimes a last-minute patch-up can be a defining inspiration, but more often it is just a patch-up, and honestly that's how I regard it here. I would have preferred silence, leaving the viewer to ponder the significance of Asuka's caress and Shinji's tears without distraction.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:05 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Have you read any fanfics which explore the possibilities for Asuka to develop further after EoE?

I've read quite a few of them; The Catalyst by Jcmoorehead, You are (not) at fault by MisterHalt, Scar Tissue by Deathbringer, The 2nd Try by JimmyWolk, and some others that are one shots, and some I can't quite remember. I think some of them did a pretty good job at developing the characters and their relationships, although, realistically, some of them might have rushed things a little; like Asuka being nice to Shinji, which seems like days, weeks, or months after coming back from Instrumentality. And then there's her getting a little lovey-dovey all over him, which may feel a little out of character, which has me asking myself "is this something Asuka would ever do?", as nice as it is. And in some other fics, it has Asuka continue being mean to Shinji throughout. I personally think that these are merely fan's speculation on could happen to the two characters after the end. While some are a little closer than others to what might actually happen, some others might just be some wish fulfillment, as preferable as they might be. So because of so many viewpoints, it's hard to tell what Asuka might actually do, and what part of her characteristics are actually true.

As for Ghosts of Evangelion, I think I only read the first chapter so far, and still have a long way to go.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:56 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:So because of so many viewpoints, it's hard to tell what Asuka might actually do, and what part of her characteristics are actually true.

That's rather the point though, isn't it? It demonstrates that your rather fixed pessimistic view of her really is not the only view possible, which should give you hope.

As for Ghosts, do persist with it; I think it really is pretty much one of the few at the top of the heap for realism and being true to the characters as presented by the series and EoE.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
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Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:35 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:I just watched the dubbed. And I only saw the series at least twice now. And EOE just one time.
The voice acting in the US dub is far less nuanced than the original, if only because of not having the same director. Even if you don't hear anything other than a clattering of mouth noises in Japanese, the tone of voice is still there, and it's distinct to the level that you see the characters in a rather different light.

That also comes out when the respective VAs are asked about their characters, and their answers to the same question are almost never the same.


I also checked out the link at the bottom, and came across an EVA fanfic crossover with a particular CLAMP work.
That's correct -- that's what I meant by "in narrative form". The original set-up I feel has enough of a "why are we all in this handcart and where are we going?" that a significant kick is needed to get off that particular down-hill track while exploring the characters.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Irohas » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:09 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:That's rather the point though, isn't it? It demonstrates that your rather fixed pessimistic view of her really is not the only view possible, which should give you hope.

As for Ghosts, do persist with it; I think it really is pretty much one of the few at the top of the heap for realism and being true to the characters as presented by the series and EoE.


Yes, yes pretty much everything pwhodges is saying. It's all endless possibilities, C.T.1290 the conclusion you've reached on Asuka is just as much of a possibility as them falling in love and having a healthy relationship. We're only shown mostly negative interactions between Shinji and Asuka, so the few good moments they share like Asuka caressing Shinji's cheek have soo much impact because it's a rare thing that we may have never expected from them ! Their mostly toxic relationship may make them feel like they should never be in a relationship together, but at the same time it can also fuel their drive at finding happiness with each other after understanding one another. Change is one of the hardest things for a lot of us, so to see those glimmers of hope/change means so much.

While it's true that we're never shown positive changes to Shinji/Asuka for the majority of the series, the few positive changes that we see outweigh the bad entirely because they are things we don't expect from their characters. But judging Asuka as incapable of positive change/growth because of her mostly negative traits is the view you have that I'm hoping to help you see differently. Some things people do are unforgivable and unforgettable, but it's never too late for someone to change for the better, and only the people going through those things can decide whether or not they can continue any type of relationship with each other in spite of all the good and bad.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:59 pm

^Yes, it is rare of them to show the more positive sides of them. And while that is nice to see, I still can't help but feel that sometimes the number of the negatives can outweigh the positives in terms of quantity. But I think I'd be willing to give them a chance of finding happiness through progression, even though I don't get to see it for myself officially(that's what fanfiction is for).

And after some time of thinking, going over and reflecting on some of my posts, and regarding some responses in this thread, I have a question to ask you all.

Have I really been so harsh on Asuka?

I know in a majority of my posts, I've been rather harsh on her and only focused on her negative traits, believing that to be her true self, how she actually is. When someone attempts to point out the more positive things about her, I wasn't totally convinced she would actually be that kind of person, so I tended to disregard them. And I know my rather harsh judgement on her would be considered inexcusable, asking if she was deserving of sympathy in my earlier threads, especially if she were a real person or there were people like her. Speaking of her being a real person, I wondered at one point on what she would say or think if she saw the threads I made regarding her.
I think that if Asuka never had that trauma and still had her mother, things would have been undoubtedly different for her, and the same could be said for Shinji, as is evident in the final episode where he imagined the world without the EVAs. Not sure if this was some fantasy made by Shinji, or if it was some alternative of what it could have been.
It would have been nice to see how things turn out between Shinji and Asuka and what improvements they have made after instrumentality. But I guess that's all up to us to decide, as I'm sure that was what the creator intended.
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