Sequel theory once again.

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: Sequel theory once again.

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:32 pm

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:The SDAT's track 27 has no logical explanation that doesn't have to do with sequel theory. Kaworu's 'this time' comments have no logical explanation that doesn't have to do with sequel theory. The strongest explanation for the chalk outline is that it's an MP Eva which somehow got here. So sequel theory looks strong to me.

For the track, A simple meta/thematic continuation rather than a literal one. The 'this time' comments are so vague and cryptic there's almost nothing to conclude with them. The chalk outline we've already explained is most likely an Adam when considering NTE's canon
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Postby Sachi » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:46 pm

Going over this thread again, I reassert that Kaworu's cryptic lines are the only thing that is currently a mystery. A mystery that could be explained a number of ways without the need for sequel theory.

SDAT track 27 is not compelling evidence on its own. It symbolizes a progression in the story, particularly Shinji's character, and as Arcadia points out, it's more of a meta commentary. Characters in NGE were effectively caught in their own loops. Shinji at one point is shown riding a train loop over and over again, while listening to his SDAT. He's unable to grow. However, in NTE, we see considerable growth and progression in the story. Track 27 and 28 (in Q) are representative of Rebuild going more off the rails from the original.
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Re: Sequel theory once again.

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Postby anonymaus » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:46 pm

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:For the track, A simple meta/thematic continuation rather than a literal one.

I don't buy that it's 'meta', nothing given so much importance has ever turned out to be 'meta' in Evangelion before.
That would be a cheap cop-out.

The 'this time' comments are so vague and cryptic there's almost nothing to conclude with them.

Nothing except the fact that Kaworu has knowledge of previous instances in which events involving Shinji transpired the same way. There is no logical interpretation for this besides a sequential timeline kind of thing.

The chalk outline we've already explained is most likely an Adam when considering NTE's canon

I explained why it is definitely not an adam in above posts, the head/neck shape is wrong and the 'adam' on the moon (if it's an adam) isn't in crucifix position like the chalk outline is.

View Original PostSachi wrote:Going over this thread again, I reassert that Kaworu's cryptic lines are the only thing that is currently a mystery. A mystery that could be explained a number of ways without the need for sequel theory.

Give me one then. Just saying there are other explanations without pointing to one makes your argument substanceless.

SDAT track 27 is not compelling evidence on its own. It symbolizes a progression in the story, particularly Shinji's character, and as Arcadia points out, it's more of a meta commentary. Characters in NGE were effectively caught in their own loops. Shinji at one point is shown riding a train loop over and over again, while listening to his SDAT. He's unable to grow. However, in NTE, we see considerable growth and progression in the story. Track 27 and 28 (in Q) are representative of Rebuild going more off the rails from the original.

There's an ungodly amount of screen time given to the SDAT, including Rei specifically picking it up and saving it twice. It has a narrative function it has yet to fulfill, it isn't just a meta-messaging device.

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Re: Sequel theory once again.

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Postby Joseki » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:52 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:Going over this thread again, I reassert that Kaworu's cryptic lines are the only thing that is currently a mystery. A mystery that could be explained a number of ways without the need for sequel theory.


I'd also add Kaworu's VA interview about 3.0 to that, Kaworu's line are vague, but he directly mentions "various cycles", and it could easily imply a non sequel loop (my favorite theory at the moment).
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Re: Sequel theory once again.

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:56 pm

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:I explained why it is definitely not an adam in above posts, the head/neck shape is wrong and the 'adam' on the moon (if it's an adam) isn't in crucifix position like the chalk outline is.

Since part of the function of limbs is to be movable, basing the identity of two images in very different circumstances on their poses is pretty much as weak a justification as you can get.

There's an ungodly amount of screen time given to the SDAT, including Rei specifically picking it up and saving it twice. It has a narrative function it has yet to fulfill, it isn't just a meta-messaging device.

"Is already fulfilling", as Sachi has just mentioned.
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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:59 pm

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:There is no logical interpretation for this besides a sequential timeline kind of thing.

Or it could just mean Kaworu knew Shinji when he was younger, probably too young for him to remember
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Postby anonymaus » Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:01 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Since part of the function of limbs is to be movable, basing the identity of two images in very different circumstances on their poses is pretty much as weak a justification as you can get.

I explained why the moon "adam"'s arms weren't moved into that position.
It is impossible for them to have been outstretched originally. Scroll up to the post I first address this in.

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:11 pm

That explains nothing, as it doesn't give any reason to prevent an Adam having outstretched arms elsewhere.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
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Postby Sachi » Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:16 pm

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:More importantly: the adam on the moon (if it is an adam, anyway) has its arms down to its sides. They weren't re-arranged that way, the ground to its sides isn't excavated in such a way that the arms could have been extended originally.
Conversely the chalk figure's arms are outstretched as if crucified, just like the MP evas at the finale of EoE. Why would one adam land in perfect crucified pose, and the other would land with its arms at its sides?
It's almost certainly not the same kind of thing as what's found on the moon.

Regarding the poses: do you honestly expect two flying objects with flailing limbs to crash land in the exact same pose?
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Postby anonymaus » Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:41 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:Regarding the poses: do you honestly expect two flying objects with flailing limbs to crash land in the exact same pose?

If one lands in perfectly congruent crucifix pose, it makes no sense at all for the other one on the moon to land like a ragdoll.
It doubly doesn't make sense that the one on the moon is buried deep beneath the surface, while the one in tokyo-3 was surface level.
And it triply doesn't make sense that there is a chalk outline of it years afterwards, after it's already been made into an eva.

The 'chalk outline was an adam which is now eva-01' theory is the most silly thing. It doesn't just have holes, it never held water to begin with.

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Postby Sachi » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:05 pm

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:If one lands in perfectly congruent crucifix pose, it makes no sense at all for the other one on the moon to land like a ragdoll.

Why not? Is it really an impossible coincidence?

It doubly doesn't make sense that the one on the moon is buried deep beneath the surface, while the one in tokyo-3 was surface level.

This actually makes perfect sense, considering the one on the moon went through space and probably crashed into the surface at a considerable velocity compared to the other, which likely remained within Earth's atmosphere.
And it triply doesn't make sense that there is a chalk outline of it years afterwards, after it's already been made into an eva.

Why not? There are half ruined areas of city all over. Not everything gets cleaned up.

For the purposes of narrative and visual storytelling, the chalk outline tells us that something large and humanoid landed there, and was retrieved. That's why it's still there. The crucifix pose suggests an Angelic association, which mankind is shown to be attempting to harness. That's why the pose is like that. So much information in a single shot.
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Postby anonymaus » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:14 pm

You can have the last word on that subject if you want, your replies have degenerated to basically just say "nuh uh, it's what I said"
If you want to continue believing the theory you had originally that's okay

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:29 pm

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:If you want to continue believing the theory you had originally that's okay

And you are welcome to continue believing yours; I'd gladly change my view if I felt that your arguments held water, but I still find the alternatives more convincing in this case.

Not least, your insistence that the outline is of an MPE Eva which has not appeared in the film series as opposed to one of the Adams which come up repeatedly is at odds with your requirement for information to be part of the story-telling which you invoked over the S-DAT.
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Postby Settie » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:31 pm

Well the most compelling idea you've brought forth for sequel theory are Kaworus cryptic lines, the outline itself just isn't enough. Cause for one thing, if memory serves the MP evas landed back headless plus that doesn't explain the conspicuous damage and red tint to the area around the outline with nearby regular dirt and trees visible. As if something landed there with some force. Not to mention that multiple MP evas landed back on earth, not just one.

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:35 pm

Guys, you can simplify this stuff, it doesn't have to be brain surgery.

All it essentially requires is that Shinji becomes an unreliable narrato during EoE and Gendo having a back-up plan in case Yui betrayed him.
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Postby Archangel » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:37 pm

Hey hey; long time Eva fan, short time lurker.

I've never liked the sequel idea; setting aside there being too many inconsistencies (Unit 02's blood changes colour between versions for example) the idea of Rebuild being a sequel is SO boring. Rebuild is a remake and should be viewed as such.

As for Kaworu talking about "the third one" and "this time" that could literally mean anything.

Without projecting our expectations from the series, we really have no idea what is going on.

Maybe there was a team of children before. The beginning of the conversation talks about a child and how they've reached a new stage in the scenario. What if, in Rebuild's universe 2nd impact was a failed attempt at instrumentality, using a group of children as the catalyst, the third of which was the "one". Now, 15 years later, a new group of children are being used and once again, it's the third child who is the one.

Kaworu wants to make Shinji happy this time, because he feels guilty from the last time were the "other third child" suffered miserably when 2nd Impact ruined the world.

This is just one random idea from someone who hasn't been looking into the background lore of Rebuild at all. There are literally dozens of other ideas or stories that Anno can come up with....

Why, oh why would he go with the most boring option?


It's a sequel = boring

It's all a dream Shinji is having in the sea of LCL during End of Eva = boring and lame.

Rebuild is something new and unprecedented = a great new story.
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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:28 am

View Original PostArchangel wrote:Maybe there was a team of children before. The beginning of the conversation talks about a child and how they've reached a new stage in the scenario. What if, in Rebuild's universe 2nd impact was a failed attempt at instrumentality, using a group of children as the catalyst, the third of which was the "one". Now, 15 years later, a new group of children are being used and once again, it's the third child who is the one.

That's...........actually not a bad idea. Kudos
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Postby Archangel » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:00 pm

Tah!

I'm pretty sure there hasn't been anything to suggest that it could be true, it was just a random idea.

Anno will have something better in mind no doubt.


Further to Rebuild not being a direct sequel in NGE is the meta references to other anime.

During 1.0 you see a red Volkswagen get flattened by a spent cartridge from Unit 01's gatling gun; that car looks a lot like the one Naota's teacher had (and lost) in FLCL.

Also in 3.0, when the Wunder takes flight, the music playing in the background is the theme song for the Nautilus from Nadia: Secret of Blue water.

Now, did Mabase city get turned into Tokyo 3 after the Medical Mechanica incident or did Naota's teacher just go live there? She sure knows how to restore cars... even after they're devoured by a Terminal Core.

And who rebuilt the Nautilus into the Wunder? Why would they bother fixing a rickety old Atlantean rust bucket like that when the could just built a new ship?

Oh wait...

Because those parts, like a lot of the bits in Rebuild are meta references and do not mean Rebuild is directly related to previous works.
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Postby CommanderFish » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:23 am

Archangel wrote:It's a sequel = boring

It's all a dream Shinji is having in the sea of LCL during End of Eva = boring and lame.

Is that necessarily so? I'd say it's all dependent on how these concepts would be utilized, more than anything else.
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Postby Archangel » Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:45 am

If Rebuild turns out to have any direct relation to End of Evangelion I'll walk away from Eva forever.

Eva was pretty much dead for me back in 2004; it was 7 years old, I had watched it to death in my late teens and the anime bubble was in full swing back then. I had a full time job and was cashed up and spoiled for choice.

Eva was (and still is) a classic, but I had gotten tired of it. It wasn't until Rebuild started coming out that I got interested in it again.

End if Eva however; I made the decision that I was no longer interested in a movie that disapproved of my love of the series.

I mean, lets be honest here; End of Eva is not an uplifting story. It comes from an Anno who was in a dark time in his life. He was battling mental health issues, trying to make a come back after Nadia bombed, dealing with third parties interfering with his work and putting up with demanding, obsessive fans who were not empathetic at all.

The results clearly show in End of Eva; everything about it is dialled up to the extreme and the results are quite visceral and often times, gratuitously disgusting.

Whilst I don't doubt the first half of the remake ending, matches the undisclosed plot of Episode 25 (more or less) I doubt it was originally intended to be so so violent. For example; I don't think we would have seen Misato torn to pieces in an explosion if Episode 25 was made how Anno originally wanted.

As for the latter half of End of Evangelion; it doesn't match what happened in Episode 26 at all. In fact, it's the polar opposite.

Episode 26; Shinji confronts his issues, realises that his perception of himself is not the only truth, overcomes his issues and lives happily ever after within the Sea of LCL.

End of Eva; Shinji has a breakdown, succumbs to his abandonment and self worth issues, imagines that Asuka hates him and will never accept him, fantasises about murdering her, wishes everyone in the world was dead, visits a parallel live action universe for no reason, reads some fanmail Anno got in real life, kills Lillith/Rei and destroys the Sea of LCL within her, and finally wakes up on a beech and tries to murder Asuka again.

Back in the day I used to blindly love End of Eva; but now... Honestly. I don't want it. I like Episode 26; not only for it's happier ending but also for it's artistic achievement of telling a story with storyboards and random images.

I think of Rebuild as Anno letting go of the bitterness he had when he made End of Eva; he's a much happier man these days and it looks to me as though he is attempting to reconcile with his fans that he chided with End of Eva. Rebuild is Eva without the baggage; a retelling of the story without the darkness of mental health issues weighing him down.

For this reason, I'm hopeful, that when all is said and done in 3.0+1.0, that Rebuild will stand alone from the series and become a new classic story.

This is why I despise the sequel theory and am glad 3.0 was so different it shattered it into little bits.
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