Mari Breaking the Loop?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby anonymaus » Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:45 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:Likewise, Rei can sync with Unit-01 because they share the connection with Lilith, as well as a potential maternal relationship between Yui and Rei.


Rei would have piloted 02 if it were the case that she can simply sync with any soul. But she can't. Asuka even says it in Rebuild when 02 is being frozen: "Even though only I can pilot 02...'
Rei can pilot 01 because part of her soul is inside 01, just like part of it is in 00. Thus the two-core arrangement for Rei and Shinji's plugsuits.

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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby Settie » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:06 pm

^ Asuka assumes that's the case, but it's likely she said it out of possessiveness rather than something unique. Given how easily Mari could use it, i imagine it to establishing a "user" in windows 10 and simply switching between them for different pilots. As for the whole plugsuit cores = resident eva souls, it kinda runs into a problem with Shinji's and Kaworu's plugsuits in 3.0. They both have those big shiny cores on them but it's explicitly stated that two souls are required to open up the seal surrounding Liliths chamber, so Unit-13 couldn't posses souls for itself as that'd make Shinji and Kaworu redundant. After all it is stated that ReiQ couldn't be used as her soul was "somewhere else".

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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby anonymaus » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:37 pm

View Original PostSettie wrote:They both have those big shiny cores on them but it's explicitly stated that two souls are required to open up the seal surrounding Liliths chamber, so Unit-13 couldn't posses souls for itself as that'd make Shinji and Kaworu redundant..

I don't remember who says this but there's no guarantee they're telling the truth, sounds like something Shinji would be told so there'd be a justification for Kaworu being there to influence events. Also the soul inside the EVA doesn't necessarily have to mean anything..

Asuka doesn't say that out of possessiveness, she is thinking pragmatically to herself in that moment about reasons 02 shouldn't be sealed, and laying out the facts. It's likely they've already done interchangeability tests off-screen just like in NGE but it didn't make the movie because there wasn't much other purpose to that scene.

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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby Sachi » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:25 pm

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:Rei would have piloted 02 if it were the case that she can simply sync with any soul. But she can't.

Unit 02 does not have the same connection to Lilith as Unit 01, so nope. Rei cannot sync with just any soul, but herself and herself? Sure.

Shinji can sync with Rei in Unit-00 also probably because of the Yui connection. It all comes into a circle between Shinji, Rei, Lilith, and Yui. Asuka and Unit-02 are not part of that.
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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby anonymaus » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:44 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:Unit 02 does not have the same connection to Lilith as Unit 01, so nope. Rei cannot sync with just any soul, but herself and herself? Sure.

Shinji can sync with Rei in Unit-00 also probably because of the Yui connection. It all comes into a circle between Shinji, Rei, Lilith, and Yui. Asuka and Unit-02 are not part of that.

You're stretching the logic way too thin, the much simpler explanation is the one I have.
And again, why does Shinji see 'berserk Rei' in his dreams directly after 01's first Berserk, if there is no Rei inside 01?

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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby Cybermat47 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:04 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:I'm also not sure why you're eager to create an off-screen explanation for the eye patch,


I guess I just think Asuka's death scene in EoE was really well done, and I'd like to see some of it survive in Rebuild.
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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby silvermoonlight » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:42 am

I just keep on hearing this weird fan theory that Mari is in fact Shinji and Asuka's daughter from a future loop coming back to change time but I really don't want this to be true because it would horribly cliche and really werid since in her first meeting she's sniffing her future dad and being odd around her mum. I still prefer to think that she's the same Mari who was in love with Yui in the manga and has come to free Yui or that she's a relation of her's or possibly the girl in manga who was shown as being Asuka's step sister.
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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:54 pm

View Original Postsilvermoonlight wrote:I just keep on hearing this weird fan theory that Mari is in fact Shinji and Asuka's daughter from a future loop coming back to change time
There was 2ch disinfo to that effect in the hours after Q first showed in theatre. See the "THE STORY SO FAR LOL" spoiler.

More context here.
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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby unitM » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:00 am

This is an interesting theory that holds substance beyond a lot of what we speak about here.

Around the time Mari drops from the sky, the original NGE plot pivots. There's a new character, the new female immediately physically breaks to intimacy with Shinji(going from psychobabble to normie traits(a significant difference not only in that section but in the entirety of the Evangelion series)). Asuka is suddenly thrown into Unit 03 and the movie ends on a tremendously-different note than that of the original episode. Admittedly, before Mari drops onto Shinji, we the viewer know things are different, but you'll notice that the difference at the beginning of the movie starts with Mari too...

Not to mention that she does spend an extended period of time holding the SDAT.

What does the SDAT represent? There are several topics: Rei, Gendo, escape, and the continuation of time. However the SDAT only realistically functions in 2 ways: to escape reality through music and to progress time for the listener(through escape). The 2nd point about the SDAT's function is more important than the first too: almost all cuts of the SDAT involve it progressing through time: the music timer going forward, the tracks changing, battery running out, etc. the SDAT's primary function is to help Shinji escape from reality by tunneling through time.

Now, Mari tinkered with that device. It certainly warrants some consideration.

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Postby Sachi » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:55 pm

View Original PostunitM wrote:Not to mention that she does spend an extended period of time holding the SDAT.

Let's not be misleading. She holds it for a couple seconds, in between landing on top of poor Shinji, to moments later when she offers it back to Shinji. Not a whole lot of time to do any tinkering, and certainly not an "extended" period of time.
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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby anonymaus » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:45 am

The tinkering clearly takes place while she has her back turned to him and is supposedly fumbling for her glasses. It's also really obvious that she tinkered with the SDAT, it's no coincidence that this scene happens and the very next frame is it transitioning to track 27 and Shinji going 'huh? That's odd.'

The only question is what she did and why

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Postby Sachi » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:19 am

Does the tinkering clearly take place? It's one thing to theorize she does, but it's anything but explicit. Another possible, much simpler explanation is that she simply damaged the SDAT by landing on it, which causes it to display different track numbers, and would explain Shinji's confusion.

Further, to buy that Mari tinkered with the SDAT suggests that Kaworu did so as well for the same or very similar reasons in Q when he fixes it for Shinji and Track 28 begins to show. Do Kaworu and Mari have the same agenda? Are they both actively planting things in Shinji's SDAT for some unexplained reason? Seems like a stretch.

I like the idea that Mari was designed to "destroy Evangelion". She's a new variable that shakes up the traditional Eva formula, and her introduction marks the coming of all sorts of other new elements in the franchise. Track 27 embodies this idea well, as well as her piloting Unit 02 against Zeruel. I don't buy that she actively tinkered with the SDAT, because there's no reason for her to and nothing to suggest that she does. However her arrival symbolizes one of many changes the franchise has going on in 2.22, and I'll buy that as an explanation for the new SDAT tracks.
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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby anonymaus » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:25 am

View Original PostSachi wrote: Another possible, much simpler explanation is that she simply damaged the SDAT by landing on it, which causes it to display different track numbers, and would explain Shinji's confusion


Evangelion doesn't let silly coincidences influence important plot points. I can tell you with absolute certainty she did something to the SDAT. You'll see in 3.0+1.0, possibly

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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby Cybermat47 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:42 am

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:Evangelion doesn't let silly coincidences influence important plot points.


Apart from the absolutely massive coincidence of Lilith landing on Adam's planet - something she was specifically designed NOT to do.

And the coincidence that, out of the c. 1095 days Gendo had to summon Shinji, he does so on the exact day that Sachiel shows up.

And the coincidence that, of all the places Samshel could have thrown EVA-01, he throws him almost on top of Toji and Kensuke.

And the coincidence that, of all the days Clockiel could have shown up, he chooses the day of EVA-02's arrival.

And the councidence that, of all the days Zeruel could have shown up, he chooses the day Shinji abandons Nerv.

I can tell you with absolute certainty she did something to the SDAT. You'll see in 3.0+1.0, possibly


If Mari did modify the SDAT - so what? And how would she have modified it?
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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby Sachi » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:43 am

That's why I go with the meta explanation of Rebuild progressing beyond NGE, hence SDAT tracks that go beyond 25 and 26.

3.0+1.0 just seems rather late in the game to explain something Mari did to it in 2.0, considering the SDAT has gone through quite a journey since then. After Rei recovered it from the trash, it somehow transfers from Unit-00 into Unit-01 thanks to N3I, and gets recovered fourteen years later along with Shinji. It doesn't work at this point (either thanks to Mari breaking it, or N3I), and so Shinji brings it to Kaworu to fix, only so Shinji can chuck it at a wall later. Then after 4I, he abandons it again, for Rei Q to possibly (probably) pick up. I highly doubt anything Mari may have done to it is still relevant at all or will get an explanation.
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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby anonymaus » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:56 am

View Original PostCybermat47 wrote:Apart from the absolutely massive coincidence of Lilith landing on Adam's planet - something she was specifically designed NOT to do.

And the coincidence that, out of the c. 1095 days Gendo had to summon Shinji, he does so on the exact day that Sachiel shows up.

And the coincidence that, of all the places Samshel could have thrown EVA-01, he throws him almost on top of Toji and Kensuke.

And the coincidence that, of all the days Clockiel could have shown up, he chooses the day of EVA-02's arrival.

And the councidence that, of all the days Zeruel could have shown up, he chooses the day Shinji abandons Nerv.



If Mari did modify the SDAT - so what? And how would she have modified it?


Those 'coincidences' are foreseen matters in the dead sea scrolls. Did you forget SEELE has knowledge of the arrival of angels?
I don't know what she did to it, or anything about its nature. It is clearly more than an audio playback device. That's the whole reason Mari targeted it in the first place. She didn't just randomly parachute onto Shinji. Mari is a spy character, sabotaging things is in her nature.

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Postby Sachi » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:02 am

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:It is clearly more than an audio playback device. That's the whole reason Mari targeted it in the first place.

You're going to have to elaborate on this. How does the SDAT have enough importance to be targeted? :huh: How is it clearly more than what it is to anybody within the story?
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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:20 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:Then after 4I, he abandons it again, for Rei Q to possibly (probably) pick up.

Or if she doesn't, this symbolises a final complete break with NGE, perhaps?
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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby anonymaus » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:49 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:You're going to have to elaborate on this. How does the SDAT have enough importance to be targeted? :huh: How is it clearly more than what it is to anybody within the story?

The audience is given a pretty good idea that it's important, this is why it receives more screen time than some of the primary characters. You'd have to be ignoring it purposely to not realize there's something significant about it. Some people think it's symbolism but no, when a spy character is sabotaging it somehow I don't think it can be a symbolism device.

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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:32 am

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:when a spy character is sabotaging it somehow I don't think it can be a symbolism device.

The idea that it has been modified at all is pure conjecture. And it's not even clear to me that Mari fits the definition of a spy (nor that sabotage is the job of a spy in any case).

What do we know about the S-DAT? Just that it was his father's. The rewinding loop symbolises Shinji's inability to break away from his father's authority. Kaworu's repair symbolises his obedience to his father's command to pilot again. The moves to tracks 27 and 28 to me symbolise steps away from his subservience to his father (it's taking longer to loop back to that starting point), and if he's abandoned it at the end of Q, this marks his final break away - no mere rebellion, but the point at which he no longer accepts his father's authority.
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