How Evangelion Gets Away With Being Terrible

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: How Evangelion Gets Away With Being Terrible

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Postby CommanderFish » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:12 pm

Joseki wrote:A single explanation can generate hundreds of interpretations. Human interactions are a fixed value of 0 and 1,they can be every value in between and can be read in many ways.
Maybe I should have used "extensively documented" instead of "fully explained" to better explain what I wanted to say.

Okay, I can see where you're coming from here. But I still think some things are left largely unexplained, as well.

Joseki wrote:I wasn't arguing about your problems with Shikinami, I was simply using her as an example.

Yeah, sorry, I knew this actually. I'll go back and edit my post to make it more clear.

Joseki wrote:However now I'm curious about the "shallow re-imagining of someone else (who need not be named)" part. Who are you talking about?

Asuka Langley Soryu.
People seem to not like it when she's brought up in comparison, because she's a different character from a different work.
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Re: How Evangelion Gets Away With Being Terrible

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Postby Guy Nacks » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:02 pm

The thing that irks me the most about NTE is that Anno still hasn't provided a sufficient backup for his rationale of it even existing. When his mission statement for the entire project basically shits on all anime that came out between 1997 and 2006 and says that no one has made an anime "newer" than Eva, he hasn't really delivered a product with these three films so far that really proves that NTE is a better-made or more revolutionary product than all of those shows in that timespan.

It's full on Anno Langley Soryu ego.
Among the people who use the Internet, many are obtuse. Because they are locked in their rooms, they hang on to that vision which is spreading across the world. But this does not go beyond mere ‘data’. Data without analysis [thinking], which makes you think that you know everything. This complacency is nothing but a trap. Moreover, the sense of values that counters this notion is paralyzed by it.

And so we arrive at demagogy. - Hideaki Anno, 1996

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Re: How Evangelion Gets Away With Being Terrible

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Postby Reichu » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:29 pm

It exists to fund non-Eva studio khara projects. Everything else is just a bonus.

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Re: How Evangelion Gets Away With Being Terrible

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:33 pm

^ I cannot wait for this. The Dragon Dentist is supposedly coming out to Blu-ray soon. Remaking Eva is a solid plan for these future endeavors. I think it's important to realize that Anno's statements speak to Khara's existence as a whole, and not to Eva in particular. As far as start-up studios go, Khara's doing remarkably well in this area.

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:The thing that irks me the most about NTE is that Anno still hasn't provided a sufficient backup for his rationale of it even existing. When his mission statement for the entire project basically shits on all anime that came out between 1997 and 2006 and says that no one has made an anime "newer" than Eva, he hasn't really delivered a product with these three films so far that really proves that NTE is a better-made or more revolutionary product than all of those shows in that timespan.

It's full on Anno Langley Soryu ego.

I don't think Anno specifies TV show anime specifically in his opening statements for NTE, but, assuming that he was referring to shows, what mainstream TV anime do you think were just as good if not better than NGE?

Cowboy Bebop was pretty hot, but it's popularity seems perpetuated only in markets foreign to Japan. Eva remained popular throughout without any new official motion-picture installments since 1997. Other shows, kist Serial Experiments Lain and Ghost Hound, and Kino's Journey, were also quite intriguing. Black Lagoon remains one of my favorite shows. But I'm not sure what their impact was like in Japan specifically. These are just shows that gained traction in the States that I also so happen to like.

Focusing on movie, Mamoru Hosoda's filmography is pretty good throughout. Again, not sure how big he is in Japan, though. I don't think Anno is meaning to diss Miyazaki movies in his statement, but I do know that the cultural reaction to Miyazaki movies is one of the few things I've noticed being as consistently popular as Eva in its country of origin, while also maintaining an extremely high standard of quality.

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Re: How Evangelion Gets Away With Being Terrible

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:23 pm

The argument of "why create X" is always the laziest argument to make.

NTE exists because Hideaki Anno felt a need & desire to make it. That's all the reason you need to create anything. What he said about the films back in 2006 matter little in the long run. Whether it was mere hype - which it 100% was - or genuine it was how he felt about the works at that point but may not be how he feels about them now. I'm sure if you had the opportunity to ask him that very same question every day for eternity he would give you a different answer every day of the week. In the end what it comes down to is Anno as artist felt the desire to do so and someone was willing to fund such a creation. Creation doesn't need rationale. It just comes and if you're lucky you'll get the chance to make it. In the end providing "rationale" is pointless because in the end the rationale is different for each viewer depending on what they themselves bring to it.

If you feel "NTE has no reason to exist" that's a perfectly valid feeling but it doesn't make it a truth. There's someone out there who feels the original NGE has no valid reason for existing and that too is a perfectly valid feeling regarding the series. Doesn't make it the truth. All art is essential. All art is also meaningless. It really depends on what the viewer brings with them through personal experience.

Anno doesn't have to provide a rationale for why the NTE films exist. He clearly felt the need to do them and thus made them. And if it really was all for "just the money" - something it could very well have been at the very start of things when NTE was just an idea on a paper napkin - it would have been very easy to rush out four movies in a year or two for profit. They haven't. They've taken their time.

The people making NTE feel there's a perfectly valid reason for said films existing. That's reason enough.

For me, I view the new films existing as a way for the writer/director to respond to the thesis he made in greatest work THROUGH re-creating said work. That's how I view the films and provides with them a perfect & fascinatingly fresh rationale for existing. If someone argues to the contrary - NTE is pointless- I may be able to see where they're coming from and will engage in said argument but they'll need to be pretty persuasive to get me to think to the contrary.

NTE has as much of a reason to exist as NGE does.

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Re: How Evangelion Gets Away With Being Terrible

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:00 am

The films get away with being bad?

Don't tons of people dislike these films? If anything, it's likely given more flack than it would as a stand alone bunch of movies because of the name attached to it(though that's pretty fair given that it's a reboot).

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Re: How Evangelion Gets Away With Being Terrible

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Postby Sachi » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:03 am

Another way to look at the question is how the films get away with being successful despite being bad.

Not that I agree that the films are bad.
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Re: How Evangelion Gets Away With Being Terrible

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:11 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:Another way to look at the question is how the films get away with being successful despite being bad.


How successful are they?
not that I agree they're bad

In fairness, I've never really looked at the films and rated them as stand alone films. In a vaccum, they're alright as a whole: two decent movies followed by a sub-par third installment.

However, as it's a reboot, I think it's fair judge it based on how it compares to the original work it serves as a reboot for. And you'll be very hardpressed to argue that comparison ends as a very favorable one.



by Asuka'sBigBrother » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:38 am

Anyway, here's a much better critique of the films I agree much with:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFultzPN7nU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffVesUI188g

It helps he doesn't try to characterize those who disagree with him as idiots.



by Asuka'sBigBrother » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:43 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I don't think dissenters of NTE are expecting a series as long as NGE. Rather, they're expecting to complain about a series that's shorter than NGE.

This whole, "they didn't have enough time to create deep characters" excuse doesn't work when they did have enough time to add a bunch of pointless characters who don't actually contribute or add anything meaningful to the story, add a drawn out and incredibly shallow rom-com bit, and over the top action scenes which often don't actually add anything meaningful to the story.

Quality over quantity becomes especially important when you're trying to create a streamlined version of something. And yet, Anno decided it was more important to make everything "Bigger and more epic" rather than develop his characters.

The issue isn't that the NTE is streamlined, the issue is how NTE decided to stream line things.

I'm also, not sure why it's wrong to compare a reboot to the original. The narrative purpose of a reboot is to replace the original.

Accordingly, a reboot's quality is dependent on what it adds or fixes from an original story and what it takes away. When you make a reboot, you shouldn't expect it to be judged the same way as a stand-alone movie, or even a sequel or prequel.

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Re: How Evangelion Gets Away With Being Terrible

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Postby Joseki » Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:42 am

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:How successful are they?


Inflation adjusted (at November 2012) 3.0 roughly did in a weekend what EoE did in its lifetime at the box office, 1.13 billions v 1.38 billions, and it ended its run at 5.5 billions. 2.0 ended at 3.6 billions and 1.0 at 1.7 billions.

They are very successful and following the trend 3.0+1.0 could very well be even better.
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Re: How Evangelion Gets Away With Being Terrible

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:41 am

As I've stated before, the "streamlined" characters work really well as supporting cast members. Nerv needed that many warm bodies in Eva Jo and Ha in order to operate in such a way that didn't strain the audiences believability. The fact that we also got to see some of the personalities of a handful of these cast members as they interact with Shinji is also really neat.

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:I'm also, not sure why it's wrong to compare a reboot to the original. The narrative purpose of a reboot is to replace the original.

Who told you this? Why do you keep assuming this? You claim that this is the director's intent, but you don't even quote the director to support your claims, and the director himself went to great lengths to keep the originals in circulation in their best possible quality.

I mean, Sony rebooted their Spider-Man movies a couple times, and I still like the original trilogy. They still sell it on nice, shiny blu-ray discs. It hasn't been replaced. Different things are different, and differences can be good. They help us distinguish that what like form that what we don't like.

Original Eva is still there. I end up watching NGE in its entirety about once a year. I still enjoy it every time I do watch it. Sadamoto's Manga didn't end up replacing NGE, none of the video games replaced NGE, Eva Puchi never replaced NGE, so I don't see why four random movies should also be considered to be replacing this great television show.

I guess the real argument is which version will end up being considered "The Definitive Version" of Eva. I personally think NGE will still have longer staying power than NTE among its audiences, simply because it's harder to mentally let go of NGE. There are so many mysteries behind its world building and its story-telling devices are so cryptic that's it's really difficult to expect anything else that's Eva to successfully replace that spot in audience's minds with some flashy new movies. If you were to ask me, I'd place NTE's staying power right between Sadamoto's manga and the original NGE. Better than Sadamoto's manga, but not as powerful or as prolific as NGE. I bet that's mostly where it be to many other people as well.

(Now, if you wanna discuss merchandise rather than story, NTE is certainly replacing much of the NGE-based toys with its own NTE-based toys. But that's neither here nor there.)
Last edited by FreakyFilmFan4ever on Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Joseki » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:51 am

Rebuilds are a replacement of NGE as much as second son replace the first one.
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Re: How Evangelion Gets Away With Being Terrible

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:25 am

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:I'm also, not sure why it's wrong to compare a reboot to the original.

It isn’t wrong, but neither is it required. I enjoy both in different ways and your choosing not to won’t affect me in that. They are different, and differently good.

The narrative purpose of a reboot is to replace the original. [...] When you make a reboot, you shouldn't expect it to be judged the same way as a stand-alone movie, or even a sequel or prequel.

I don’t choose to accept either of those assertions.
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Re: How Evangelion Gets Away With Being Terrible

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:30 am

I like how nobody compared the Brendan Fraser Mummy movies to the original 1932 Mummy movie. It allowed both movies to exist on their own terms, with many people even wondering if one could be considered a remake/reboot to the other.

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:31 am

"It helps he doesn't try to characterize those who disagree with him as idiots."
A case of the pot calling the kettle black.

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:55 pm

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:"It helps he doesn't try to characterize those who disagree with him as idiots."
A case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Not once here have I tried to belittle other users here. I've made a point of focusing solely on arguments, not the users who make them.

Though it's clear you don't seem to agree with that approach to debating.

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:08 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:As I've stated before, the "streamlined" characters work really well as supporting cast members. Nerv needed that many warm bodies in Eva Jo and Ha in order to operate in such a way that didn't strain the audiences believability. The fact that we also got to see some of the personalities of a handful of these cast members as they interact with Shinji is also really neat.

The problem being none of them had any meaningful interactions with Shinji and none of them had any meaningful depth. You don't need to develop every minor character. Deeply developing a few major ones does far more for your story. Seeing meaningful character interactions, relations and granting characters depth are all far more important than having a greater quantity of cameos.

NGE understood this, NTE didn't.
View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Who told you this? Why do you keep assuming this? You claim that this is the director's intent, but you don't even quote the director to support your claims, and the director himself went to great lengths to keep the originals in circulation in their best possible quality.

The author's intent isn't relevant. He made a reboot. Reboot's Redo a story. If you're going to redo a story, then there should be adding more than you're taking away from it. And yes, I'm aware Anno can do whatever the hell he wants, it's also fair for me to criticize the hell out of Anno's decisions.
View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I mean, Sony rebooted their Spider-Man movies a couple times, and I still like the original trilogy.

The original trilogy being quality and the newer films being a worse version of said story aren't mutually exclusive concepts.
They still sell it on nice, shiny blu-ray discs. It hasn't been replaced. Different things are different, and differences can be good. They help us distinguish that what like form that what we don't like.
View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Original Eva is still there. I end up watching NGE in its entirety about once a year. I still enjoy it every time I do watch it. Sadamoto's Manga didn't end up replacing NGE, none of the video games replaced NGE, Eva Puchi never replaced NGE, so I don't see why four random movies should also be considered to be replacing this great television show.

The availability of the original isn't remotely relevant to the value of the reboot. If you write a quality original and then replace it with a story that fails to add anything meaningful to it, then the reboot remains a valueless addition and hence is deserving of criticism.
View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I guess the real argument is which version will end up being considered "The Definitive Version" of Eva. I personally think NGE will still have longer staying power than NTE among its audiences, simply because it's harder to mentally let go of NGE. There are so many mysteries behind its world building and its story-telling devices are so cryptic that's it's really difficult to expect anything else that's Eva to successfully replace that spot in audience's minds with some flashy new movies. If you were to ask me, I'd place NTE's staying power right between Sadamoto's manga and the original NGE. Better than Sadamoto's manga, but not as powerful or as prolific as NGE. I bet that's mostly where it be to many other people as well.

None of the above is remotely relevant to what I'm arguing.

Anyway, let's agree to disagree. We're not getting anywhere.

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Re: How Evangelion Gets Away With Being Terrible

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:09 pm

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:They still sell it on nice, shiny blu-ray discs. It hasn't been replaced.
[...]
If you write a quality original and then replace it

Make up your mind. Spiderman hasn’t been replaced, but in the same situation NGE has?
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Re: How Evangelion Gets Away With Being Terrible

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:32 pm

^ I think he accidentally forgot to quote part of my post that he was trying to quote:
View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I mean, Sony rebooted their Spider-Man movies a couple times, and I still like the original trilogy. They still sell it on nice, shiny blu-ray discs. It hasn't been replaced. Different things are different, and differences can be good. They help us distinguish that what like form that what we don't like.

...But there's so much hack and slash in that post, I decided to wait until I had a less busy day before I responded to it.


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