C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby imprimatur13 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:18 am

Oh, no thanks :). Just commenting on the mod-given thread title. Edited above post to make sense.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:43 am

^Huh. It seems like the title makes me seem a bit like the bad guy here. But I guess I've been a little harsh on Asuka, but I think for a good reason. Even with all the facts brought up, I still have a hard time understanding Asuka, like if she's a good person or not, no matter how much I try to understand her, which was why I've made so many threads about her regarding her characteristics and morale standards, just to get my line of questions answered.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Sachi » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:45 am

If you're exposing Asuka as a bad person, doesn't that make you the good guy? :wink:
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:41 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:If you're exposing Asuka as a bad person, doesn't that make you the good guy? :wink:

Well...I'm not sure how to answer that one.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Nahash » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:39 pm

You do not have to like a character, no matter if most of the community likes it or not.
Personally, even if I do not hate Asuka, it is not a character that marked me.
And I'm doing very well.
The real question you'll have to ask yourself is "Is this really a problem? ".
Obviously, it is not with logical arguments that you will begin to like a character.
I do not think your problem is a logical or knowledge problem.
But rather a matter of preference, personality and sensibility.
We are not all necessarily sensitive to the same thing.
And I do not think that's a problem.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Shinji Ikari Expy » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:20 pm

You're entitled to dislike a character. But a lot of things you've written about her just aren't true — things along the lines of "Asuka is incapable of caring about anyone but herself," "Asuka never gives Shinji a break," etc. — based on the information we're given in the show. Based on the volume of your Asuka-related posts, I'd say she definitely has a hold on you — does she remind you of a terrible ex-girlfriend or something? Why dwell on this topic for so long?

Personally, I vacillate between liking and disliking her, which is a sign that a character is well-written. Maybe I just understand her better because I grew up with a hyper-competitive, overachieving older sister — the type of person who has to "win" at everything, throws a fit when she loses and tries desperately to save face when she thinks she looks inferior. I don't even think you need a traumatic backstory to make this sort of person seem sympathetic — there are many hard-driving, type-A personalities who are actually good-natured; they just have this insecurity that makes them hard to deal with at times.

I have more of a Shinji personality (like most posters here, probably) and I relate to Shinji's frustration and bafflement in his interactions with her. They both feel like real people, and the way they constantly misunderstand one another is depressingly realistic as well.

Anyway...terrific character. You might hate her, but you have to admit she's really interesting.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:29 pm

View Original PostShinji Ikari Expy wrote:Based on the volume of your Asuka-related posts, I'd say she definitely has a hold on you — does she remind you of a terrible ex-girlfriend or something? Why dwell on this topic for so long?

Well, to be brutally honest, I've never had a girlfriend in my life, nor am I rushing for one. The reason I tend to judge Asuka for her negative actions is because I don't necessarily approve of them, like I tend to judge some people in general for wrong doings. I honestly expected better of some people, like Asuka for instance. After all, there are some better ways to deal with things, and we should set a good example.

And I like to think that Shinji and Asuka have the potential to be a good couple. But the way things turned out between them, that now seems very unlikely, not to mention unrealistic.
Anyway...terrific character. You might hate her, but you have to admit she's really interesting.

Yep, she certainly caught my interest, although it did came off a bit negative.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby silvermoonlight » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:51 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:Well, to be brutally honest, I've never had a girlfriend in my life, nor am I rushing for one. The reason I tend to judge Asuka for her negative actions is because I don't necessarily approve of them, like I tend to judge some people in general for wrong doings. I honestly expected better of some people, like Asuka for instance. After all, there are some better ways to deal with things, and we should set a good example.

And I like to think that Shinji and Asuka have the potential to be a good couple. But the way things turned out between them, that now seems very unlikely, not to mention unrealistic.

Yep, she certainly caught my interest, although it did came off a bit negative.


No offence intended but I think the issue here is judgement, people in the real world are flawed even broken no one is perfect and it wrong to put people pedestals or expect them to behave in a certain way as people will never be perfect so its better to love a person or character flaws and all. As far as Shinji/Asuka being a good couple no couple is perfect and the romance tv and media sells is to perfect its mostly fantasy as all couples have arguments or go through hard times but you can have a good solid long term relationship despite this that is healthy and people can grow and change for the better given time. ^_^
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:11 pm

Contrary to what seems to be the popular opinion amongst Asuka, um... challengers, I actually think that Asuka deserves to feel the immense pride that she does for the things she's accomplished.

Asuka graduated college before the age of 13. (Basically imagine Chiyo Chan from Azumanga Daioh in college. That's how smart she is.)

Asuka is the BEST Eva pilot. (She accomplishes the most with the least amount of assistance from her Eva's internal being.)

Asuka is multilingual. (Japanese and German.)

Asuka fights in international (dare we say, intergalactic) wars.

With that amount of accomplishments, coming back to the world of a bunch of teenagers (of which she is a member) feels weird and like a step backwards. Frustration is understandable. Add to that whatever physiological scarring that occurred due to Koyko's suicide, and everything about Asuka makes sense. I even find her sympathetic.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby xanderkh » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:17 pm

^

Then that begs the question about her relationship with Shinji? Is perusing a relationship with Shinji, someone who could naturally surpass her as a pilot, but never wanted the praise or the pride that came with it? Is choosing a relationship with him a step backwards...or a step forwards?

And also, we have to consider whether or not Asuka is equipped to handle such "praise" in a mature fashion. She may have had a lot of "adult" accomplishments, but she still behaves like a teenager, IMMENSELY.

It's one thing to deserve praise from your accomplishments, but it's another thing to DEMAND praise from your accomplishments, and one is a lot more mature and "adult" than the other. And unfortunately, Asuka was projecting her accomplishments in the least mature fashion. She can have all the accomplishments and brain cells of a super genius, but all that amounts to NULL when her judgement is still that of a petulant child.

That's not to say that Shinji was any better as well, like both of their issues, their complete opposite in EXTREMES of each other.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:07 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Contrary to what seems to be the popular opinion amongst Asuka, um... challengers, I actually think that Asuka deserves to feel the immense pride that she does for the things she's accomplished.

Asuka graduated college before the age of 13. (Basically imagine Chiyo Chan from Azumanga Daioh in college. That's how smart she is.)

Asuka is the BEST Eva pilot. (She accomplishes the most with the least amount of assistance from her Eva's internal being.)

Asuka is multilingual. (Japanese and German.)

Asuka fights in international (dare we say, intergalactic) wars.

Yes, but there is such thing as being too prideful. Remember that pride is one of the seven deadly sins. We can't let that go to our heads, or it might get the best of us, blind us to the truth, and make us disregard the safety and well being of others. And that's exactly what happened to Asuka; her pride has gotten a hold of her and took advantage of her, making her selfish, arrogant, blind, too pig-headed, ungrateful, and shameful. She may have forgotten about the people who helped her in her accomplishments of becoming an EVA pilot in the first place, taken them for granted. And I don't think she really cares about others, only her pride as the top pilot. And since Shinji was nothing but a competition to her, she probably would have found a way to eliminate the said competition, even if it would mean hurting others in the process, and she wouldn't care.

Maybe if Asuka wasn't so prideful or full of herself, maybe if she was more humbled, or knew the value of teamwork, then maybe those bad things that have happened to her towards the end probably would never had occurred, if only if she had changed her ways. And she might also lead a more happy life had she understood the importance of helping others, not just for personal gain, but because someone actually wants to help the other, because that said person has a big heart. If she just allowed herself to care for others, and be kinder to them, then maybe people would do to same thing in return, and then Asuka wouldn't be as hated as she is now. That is all I'm asking for someone like her. To set a good example for others so that they may too learn.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:25 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:And she might also lead a more happy life had she understood the importance of helping others, not just for personal gain, but because someone actually wants to help the other, because that said person has a big heart. If she just allowed herself to care for others, and be kinder to them, then maybe people would do to same thing in return, and then Asuka wouldn't be as hated as she is now. That is all I'm asking for someone like her. To set a good example for others so that they may too learn.

If you want an Asuka like this, i'd recommend reading Bagheera's Ghost's of Evangelion. A sequel fic that's very much in-character with the series, and has both Shinji and Asuka go through a lot of personal growth together, but written in such a way that it feels realistic, in keeping with the show's storytelling and themes, and doesn't feel like simple fan wish fulfillment
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby ErgoProxy » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:00 pm

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I actually think that Asuka deserves to feel the immense pride that she does for the things she's accomplished.


Uhh, I don't see your argument as valid. At all.

See:

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Asuka graduated college before the age of 13.

This means she's excellent in knowledge acquisition and dumping – in a specific, controlled environment. Actually, it's an environment designed to produce skilled workers for 19th century factories, where the whole system of grades was devised. This is the environment she's perfectly fit for, but what about real life with no grades? Can she sell what she learned? Okay, thermal expansion probably made Shinji to jump for her into lava, so she had a good start. And then what?

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Asuka is the BEST Eva pilot.

This means little on the battlefield, where you're part of the squad and do your job in team. Even more, the BEST piloting skills mean nothing, when the enemy can cap-cover you; and it was enough to put nine caps with dumb Dummy System on board and equipped with Made in China weapons to take her down (and without casualties). That's how Japanese lost their war in the skies of the Pacific. The number always wins with the mastery, and the only exception from this rule is the lance vs armor comb... oh shit.

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Asuka is multilingual.

Aj-waj, wielkie mecyje. Language is only a tool to convey your thoughts to the recipient. What was her answer to Shinji's question of why the Angels attack us? That's why Shinji managed to get out from Leliel's guts with mind intact, while she's not so lucky with Arael. He was contactive and she was the BEST.

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Asuka fights in international (dare we say, intergalactic) wars.

And she's keystone of the perimeter. And that's why Gendo wins: because she's not able to play such role. She cannot even build a well harmonized lead-led pilot duo with Shinji, as the lead – which was the only possible way for her to survive the Harpies: if they were both put into unawakened Eva again. Dumb Dummy System is dumb, so there was still a chance that it would detect and recognize its best friend, and go malfunct, if not switch sides. But there was one condition: they had to keep close to each other, both in the 'field and out of it.

So sweet Kaworu, the mankind thanks you for showing Rei what the AT-Field is, cause that's only why she was able to fuck Gendo off and out in the last minute. Asuka thanks you too, even though you took her preciousss Unit without her special permission.

(I mean, I have nothing against pride, as long as you ride the wave of the feeling, so to say, and not the other way. And when you become addicted to pride, you sooner or later end in the bathtub, because luck comes and goes.)

(Also, apparently Shikinami learned all these lessons. Soryu did not.)
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:15 am

View Original PostErgoProxy wrote:This means she's excellent in knowledge acquisition and dumping – in a specific, controlled environment.

Education is about a lot more than that, particularly at college level.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Joseki » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:42 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Asuka graduated college before the age of 13. (Basically imagine Chiyo Chan from Azumanga Daioh in college. That's how smart she is.)


This is my biggest problem with Asuka in NGE and probably with NGE in general. How can Asuka have the analytical approach and critical thinking needed to graduate and at the same time being so "Asuka".
I don't know how school works in Japan but here the first objective any school has is to form the students as a person, and Asuka clearly hasn't received anything more than pure informations from whoever teached her.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:53 am

Remember, she went to school and college in Germany, not Japan.

But yes, I also find her supposed college education one of the most jarring aspects of the series (and her rank in the films similarly). I just take it as feeding her pride, and having no effect on anything else.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby xanderkh » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:15 am

^

Probably yet another of Seele's machinations: A well feed puppet, is one that is easy to manipulate....
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
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Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:50 am

@ErgoProxy I'm not saying that she doesn't take her pride to inappropriate places, but that she at least deserves to have it. Not sure what's wrong with that statement. The rest of your post seems to be dissing what are objectively impressive accomplishments for a middle-schooler, which is.... okay, I guess. I, too, am against middle-schoolers striving for achedemic excellence.

@pwhodges I guess your mileage may vary on this, but, to me, Asuka graduating college in Germany by age 13 is only as jarring as (if not less jarring than) her becoming an Eva pilot and attempted savior of the world by age 13. You can pick your poison if you must, but I'll gladly drink both for you. :wink:

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:42 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:I still have a hard time understanding Asuka, like if she's a good person or not
She's an emotionally damaged (and emotionally starved) teenage girl, living in a foreign country. That alone would be enough to cause problems, before we start in on the UHIQ and child soldier parts.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Joseki » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:10 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Asuka graduating college in Germany by age 13 is only as jarring as (if not less jarring than) her becoming an Eva pilot and attempted savior of the world by age 13. You can pick your poison if you must, but I'll gladly drink both for you. :wink:


I don't think that it's a fair comparison: Evangelions and angels doesn't exist in the real world, so it's much easier for the viewer to believe that only 13-14 years old could pilot the Evangelions even if it's just pure fantasy. School and degrees on the other hand are something that everyone of us has experienced and it's much harder to believe that she could a graduate because we all know what that imply in the real world.
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