During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby Reichu » Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:33 pm

Irohas wrote:based off the analysis Sachi made it's a definite possibility that they may have just been what Shinji's own personal image of them were inside his mind.

:???:
Sachi wrote:The example from EoE of Shinji witnessing Misato and Kaji's sexathon is clearly a version of Misato that exists beyond Shinji's mind, and therefore must come from the mind of another.


I'll admit that I'm incredibly confused about what it is that you feel so indecisive about. If the Misato example isn't proof enough for you, I have no idea what would be acceptable.
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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby Cybermat47 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:08 pm

If Asuka, Misato, and Rei were just projections, I feel the scene loses a great deal of emotional impact - especially the coffee pot scene.
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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby Irohas » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:45 am

View Original PostReichu wrote::???:


I'll admit that I'm incredibly confused about what it is that you feel so indecisive about. If the Misato example isn't proof enough for you, I have no idea what would be acceptable.


It's alright Reichu, I got a basic understanding of what I was looking for. The meaning of what I said was that Sachi's analysis although proved that they were able to see what was going on in each other's minds, supported the claim that what Shinji was experiencing were his own thoughts and how he thought the girls would respond. Not their actually minds connected / speaking to one another i.e. when Shinji choked Asuka during the coffee pot scene it was his projection of her and not her own being experiencing it. Though the possibility still remains that it could've been them since Rei was connecting their minds during certain scenarios like the Kaji/Misato scene.

Remember my original intention was to figure out if it was the girls speaking to him during the hell train scene in order to understand if that was what they wanted to convey to him instead of what he thought they would say to in reaction to his flaws.

Also yes, I agree Cybermat47. Though they definitely would have saw the thoughts after anyways through Instrumentality the impact of the choking / hell train scene gives us good insight as to how the girls really felt about Shinji, especially Asuka since she confronted him that she knows about his fantasies and their argument during the coffee pot scene revealing their true feelings/flaws towards one another.

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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby ErgoProxy » Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:38 am

Irohas wrote:...what Shinji was experiencing were his own thoughts and how he thought the girls would respond. Not their actually minds connected...


Impossibiru. The whole Shinji's dialogue with Rei which follows afterwards loses its meaning if you assume the coffee pot scene happened exclusively in Shinji's mind and real Asuka wasn't involved.

Rei Liberation Parade, script for Ep 26' wrote:Shinji:
Nobody understands me.

Rei:
You didn't understand anything.

Shinji:
I thought it was supposed to be a world without unpleasantness... without uncertainty

Rei:
Because you thought that everyone else was like you.

Shinji:
Betrayed! You've betrayed my feelings!!

Rei:
You've misunderstood from the start. You simply assumed without asking.

Shinji:
Nobody wants me. So, everybody just die.


Emboldened for you. This very line means Shinji experienced the taste of true Instrumentality, instead of attempting to play some model simulation of it, as you seem to claim (though I must admit I'm not quite sure have I properly understood you, or are you chasing some other thought).
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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby Irohas » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:00 am

View Original PostErgoProxy wrote:Impossibiru. The whole Shinji's dialogue with Rei which follows afterwards loses its meaning if you assume the coffee pot scene happened exclusively in Shinji's mind and real Asuka wasn't involved.



Emboldened for you. This very line means Shinji experienced the taste of true Instrumentality, instead of attempting to play some model simulation of it, as you seem to claim (though I must admit I'm not quite sure have I properly understood you, or are you chasing some other thought).


Hi ErgoProxy o/ thank you for your insight ^_^

So based on my recent posts I didn't actually come to the conclusion that it was just a model simulation being played out in his head, I did my best to state that from the evidence and information I've collected from the posters here and other's theories, both situations were definitely possible. < Sachi's analysis supports the idea that Shinji's way of coping with his personal anxiety and fear of rejection stemmed the reactions he felt he would get from the girls during his internal conflict, meaning in his opinion based on Shinji's character, it was likely going on in just his mind. But the fact that he was shown Misato / Kaji's past shows that their thoughts could have been unified during certain points inside Shinji's mind.

The other posters used similar evidence to support the idea that they weren't just model simulations / projections in Shinji's mind but nothing gives us a for sure answer for either claim being the right one. So I came to accept that both are indeed possible and have good evidence to support each of them being true.

But what I strongly want to believe is that it was actually Asuka's soul experiencing the hell train scene / coffee pot argument with Shinji, as it gave great clarification on how they felt about each other.

I'm already convinced that Rei conveyed her feelings as she had a direct hand in what Shinji was going through. But if what Misato / Asuka were saying was Shinji's thoughts or actually them is still up to debate, except of course diving into Misato / Kaji's past but that alone doesn't say for sure that it was Asuka / Misato / Rei speaking to him during his internal conflict. It could've just been that they had access to each other's memories and thoughts but weren't directly communicating with each other.

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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby Lyrical » Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:05 pm

The following exchange stops making sense if Shinji isn't talking to the true Misato and Asuka, though for slightly different reasons that what people have already pointed out with this quote:



Shinji:
I thought it was supposed to be a world without unpleasantness... without uncertainity.

Rei:
Because you thought that everyone else was like you.

Shinji:
Betrayed! You've betrayed my feelings!!

Rei:
You've misunderstood from the start. You simply assumed without asking.



If Misato and Asuka are simply projections in Shinji's mind, then their actions have to be rooted in what he already knows and feels about them. However, Rei is clearly referring to a misconception here - as in, Shinji's angry that the Misato and Asuka he sees now is different from the image he has of them in his head. That difference isn't possible unless it's really them.

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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby Irohas » Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:47 pm

View Original PostLyrical wrote:The following exchange stops making sense if Shinji isn't talking to the true Misato and Asuka, though for slightly different reasons that what people have already pointed out with this quote:



If Misato and Asuka are simply projections in Shinji's mind, then their actions have to be rooted in what he already knows and feels about them. However, Rei is clearly referring to a misconception here - as in, Shinji's angry that the Misato and Asuka he sees now is different from the image he has of them in his head. That difference isn't possible unless it's really them.


Very true, their individuality was a strong presence in Shinji's mind. Even if it was just how he imagined them to be he was still receiving responses he never expected from them, so in a way I can see how their own personas were present during his internal conflict. Everything Asuka/Rei were saying to Shinji during the hell train/coffee pot scene seemed to have a lot to do with their individuality and personal feelings towards him, and honestly the impact of the scenes diminishes if they were just how Shinji imagined them to be.

The kick in replacement to a kiss was huge development to Asuka's character for me , it showed how fed up she was with Shinji's reliance on others and his failure at being selfless. Though he made sufficient effort he never truly put others before himself, and Asuka was one of the first to make him aware of that fact.

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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:55 pm

Wether or not these women were just projections in Shinji's head or the real deal, the fact of the matter is that Shinji felt betrayed by them due to the experiences he had with them. Misato wasn't supportive enough and too wrapped up in her own issues. Asuka was abusive towards him, and was too focused on putting herself before others that she didn't have time to give a damn about other people, even though some of them were trying to be nice to her. And Rei didn't know how to interact with because of how she was brought up. Gendo didn't and wouldn't allow Rei to get close to people other than himself. And due to some miscommunications, Shinji felt he was betrayed by the people close to him.

So in a way, I felt that Shinji was right to initiate Third Impact. When Shinji begged Asuka for help, what did she do? She rejected it in her usual and cold manner. Wether or not she was the real Asuka or Just a projection in Shinji's mind, the subject of the matter is clear on how Asuka feels about Shinji. And because of how she rejected his plea for help, and for how she treated him throughout all the times they've spent with each other, that earned her a strangulation from Shinji, who in turn showed her how he feels about her; he hates her just as much as she hates him.

So as I've said, wether they were real or not, the fact stands that Shinji felt that the only people he cares about had turned their backs on him, as many people did before throughout his whole life.
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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby Irohas » Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:09 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:Wether or not these women were just projections in Shinji's head or the real deal, the fact of the matter is that Shinji felt betrayed by them due to the experiences he had with them. Misato wasn't supportive enough and too wrapped up in her own issues. Asuka was abusive towards him, and was too focused on putting herself before others that she didn't have time to give a damn about other people, even though some of them were trying to be nice to her. And Rei didn't know how to interact with because of how she was brought up. Gendo didn't and wouldn't allow Rei to get close to people other than himself. And due to some miscommunications, Shinji felt he was betrayed by the people close to him.

So in a way, I felt that Shinji was right to initiate Third Impact. When Shinji begged Asuka for help, what did she do? She rejected it in her usual and cold manner. Wether or not she was the real Asuka or Just a projection in Shinji's mind, the subject of the matter is clear on how Asuka feels about Shinji. And because of how she rejected his plea for help, and for how she treated him throughout all the times they've spent with each other, that earned her a strangulation from Shinji, who in turn showed her how he feels about her; he hates her just as much as she hates him.

So as I've said, wether they were real or not, the fact stands that Shinji felt that the only people he cares about had turned their backs on him, as many people did before throughout his whole life.


Well said, I agree that projection or not, it was most likely her true feelings towards Shinji. At the same time it's still nice to reach a consensus if it was actually what she wanted to convey to him through any solid evidence that I may or may not have missed. It's not completely out of the question that she may have responded differently if it was actually her and not how he imagined her to be, but you're right, projection or not I feel the most likely conclusion was that was her actual feelings towards Shinji. Their minds did become one so even if they were just imaginary i'd say he reached a good understanding to her character and what she thinks about him.


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