Godzilla & Kaiju General!

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Re: Godzilla & Kaiju General!

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:23 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:The point of Godzilla 2014 is that we're too up our own ass about our power and our technology. The whole movie is about the humans trying and failing to exert control over the natural world.

[...]

American Godzilla: If we destroy ourselves the universe won't notice.

The American big-G is basically a slightly benevolent Lovecraftian monster god. He's a guardian spirit, but he's not guarding us by choice.

I'm not saying ay of that isn't true. Ken Watanabe's character clearly makes the thematics of the "Monsterverse" as a whole rather clear, within terms of gods and such. It gives me hope that they'll treat Mothra right in future movies. (If the fairy twins aren't introducing Mothra in the Monsterverse by singing in order to summon the monster, I'm lobbying hard complains against the first innocent theater staff member I see before going home to write lengthy letter of complaint to Legendary Studios.)

I'm just saying that Aaron Taylor-Johnson's character (and even Bryan Cranston's, to some extent) reflect the modern political and military concerns that have risen in a post-9/11 America. I don't expect this to be consistent throughout the Monsterverse. (Kong: Skull Island reflects the social anxieties and pent-up emotions that immediately followed the Vietnam.) I do expect the thematics you're talking about to be the cornerstone upon which the entire Monsterverse rests, as they're present in both Godzilla and Kong movies thus far. And hopefully that'll lead to a precise portrayal of the absurd religious themes and practices that revolve around the monster Mothra. The way Legendary have it written so far, the series should be able to support those characters. The fairy twins are literally called the "Cosmos" in the Japanese Godzilla movie. Characters that are called the Cosmos that have a tight relationship with Mothra suddenly caring about the survival of humanity would be the literal "deus-exmachina" needed to answer the series' existential crisis that it raised in the first two films.

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:Something else besides the kaiju might make a return to the Godzilla Universe in 2019.
Click the link for a clue from the director himself:

https://twitter.com/Mike_Dougherty/stat ... 44/photo/1

WHAT IN THE ACTUAL....

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Postby Cybermat47 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:50 pm

I've always said that oxygen is overrated.

Just make sure there are no microscopic crab Satan things around when you activate it, or we'll be in trouble 41 years later.
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Postby Chuckman » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:27 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I'm not saying ay of that isn't true. Ken Watanabe's character clearly makes the thematics of the "Monsterverse" as a whole rather clear, within terms of gods and such. It gives me hope that they'll treat Mothra right in future movies. (If the fairy twins aren't introducing Mothra in the Monsterverse by singing in order to summon the monster, I'm lobbying hard complains against the first innocent theater staff member I see before going home to write lengthy letter of complaint to Legendary Studios.)

I'm just saying that Aaron Taylor-Johnson's character (and even Bryan Cranston's, to some extent) reflect the modern political and military concerns that have risen in a post-9/11 America. I don't expect this to be consistent throughout the Monsterverse. (Kong: Skull Island reflects the social anxieties and pent-up emotions that immediately followed the Vietnam.) I do expect the thematics you're talking about to be the cornerstone upon which the entire Monsterverse rests, as they're present in both Godzilla and Kong movies thus far. And hopefully that'll lead to a precise portrayal of the absurd religious themes and practices that revolve around the monster Mothra. The way Legendary have it written so far, the series should be able to support those characters. The fairy twins are literally called the "Cosmos" in the Japanese Godzilla movie. Characters that are called the Cosmos that have a tight relationship with Mothra suddenly caring about the survival of humanity would be the literal "deus-exmachina" needed to answer the series' existential crisis that it raised in the first two films.


WHAT IN THE ACTUAL....


Kong was a lot stronger in that regard. The themes behind Jackson's character were pretty clear.

It was a bit less so in G2014. I agree with you on the post-9/11 stuff there but it wasn't very clear. I think they could have done more had they kept Cranston's character around.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:54 pm

So far, I'm not seeing anyone cast as the fairy twins in a film that supposedly features Mothra. I'm officially sceptical of the legitimacy of this so-called "Monsterverse."

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Postby Cybermat47 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:02 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:So far, I'm not seeing anyone cast as the fairy twins in a film that supposedly features Mothra. I'm officially sceptical of the legitimacy of this so-called "Monsterverse."


No Shobijin, no Mothra.

Unless it's GMK.

Wait, Mothra just replaced Anguirus in that, so nevermind...
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Postby Chuckman » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:13 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:So far, I'm not seeing anyone cast as the fairy twins in a film that supposedly features Mothra. I'm officially sceptical of the legitimacy of this so-called "Monsterverse."


I trust them to do a low key but intelligent thing with this.

I loved how Skull Island was the first Kong movie where Kong doesn't come from an island full of savage African natives... who live on an island in the pacific, and they don't think the white blonde lady is magical, or even made out of gold, or pay attention to her at all.

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:14 pm

Godzilla: Planet of the Monsters trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16K-M2IzTWw

I mean I'll watch it but it looks like a videogame cutscene.

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Postby Chuckman » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:05 am

That looks like gameplay, not a cutscene.

It also appears to have robots fighting Godzilla so I'm done, let's fucking do this.

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Postby movieartman » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:42 am

Adam Wingard states his G vs Kong film will lean closer to the classic dark Gojira tone.
Massive plus for me as I much prefered the 14 tone to what Skull Island came off as being toned In the later trailers (haven't seen it yet, taking my time rewatching all Kong related products first)

"Godzilla has gone through so many iterations. He’s been a bad guy, he’s been a good guy, he’s been a conflicted guy. There’s so many different things you can do with it, but it’s not drawing on one core story and its always been about the evolution of the character. They’re going in a great direction with it so far. I just went on the set of 'Godzilla 2', got to peak in on that and it looks totally awesome and the vibe that they’re going for is great. It’s a cool tradition to jump into, but it’s also one of those things where at a certain point you have to take it very seriously. Even though these are big, wild monster movies the origin of that is really from World War II and Hiroshima. If you watch that first film it’s really a sad movie. It’s a really depressing exploration of that, so you always have to remember at the end of the day the reason you’re here is because a major catastrophe took place. There’s this underlying darkness under it all, but at the end of the day it is for kids as well. Its evolved into this whole other thing that means so many things to different people."

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Postby silvermoonlight » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:25 am

View Original Postmovieartman wrote:Adam Wingard states his G vs Kong film will lean closer to the classic dark Gojira tone.
Massive plus for me as I much prefered the 14 tone to what Skull Island came off as being toned In the later trailers (haven't seen it yet, taking my time rewatching all Kong related products first)


The original Godzilla vs King Kong is a gem because it doesn't take itself seriously on any level and the whole movie makes you snigger with scenes like Kong shoving a tree in to Godzilla's mouth.

SPOILER: Show
Image


It's why though I like the idea of Kong vs Godzilla I'm kind of sad that its gonna be all so serious and I'm really hoping that they'll throw in comic moments to lighten it up in places other wise its in danger of being overly depressing. Shin Godzilla got around this by cleverly inserting comic gold with it's human cast where as Godzilla 2014 didn't have a single joke which hurt the movie in my view as you had no moment to break the darkness.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:54 am

View Original Postmovieartman wrote:Adam Wingard states his G vs Kong film will lean closer to the classic dark Gojira tone.
Massive plus for me as I much prefered the 14 tone to what Skull Island came off as being toned In the later trailers (haven't seen it yet, taking my time rewatching all Kong related products first)

[...]

"Even though these are big, wild monster movies the origin of that is really from World War II and Hiroshima. If you watch that first film it’s really a sad movie. It’s a really depressing exploration of that, so you always have to remember at the end of the day the reason you’re here is because a major catastrophe took place. There’s this underlying darkness under it all, but at the end of the day it is for kids as well. Its evolved into this whole other thing that means so many things to different people."

I don't know if there's any reason for Godzilla v Kong to be a sad movie comparable to the tone of the 1954 film. If you want compelling drama in a kaiju battle flick, your best bets are Godzilla Raids Again, The Terror of Mechagodzilla, or Gamera 3: Revenge of Iris.

I mean, the only Godzilla movie that came even close to emulating the tone of the original film was Shin Godzilla. It took 62 years before Japan could recapture a comparable tone to the 1954 film, and it took a whole other natural disaster in order to inspire that tone honestly.

Sadly, if you really want Hollywood to replicate that tone successfully, they should wait until N. Korea nukes one of our cities first.

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Postby movieartman » Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:32 am

View Original Postsilvermoonlight wrote:The original Godzilla vs King Kong is a gem...

Sorry, can't agree. I think it was really poor & the 2nd worst of the franchise after Revenge

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:If you want compelling drama in a kaiju battle flick, your best bets are Godzilla Raids Again, The Terror of Mechagodzilla, or Gamera 3: Revenge of Iris.

I mean, the only Godzilla movie that came even close to emulating the tone of the original film was Shin Godzilla. It took 62 years before Japan could recapture a comparable tone to the 1954 film, and it took a whole other natural disaster in order to inspire that tone honestly.

1985? Vs Biollante? GMK?

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Postby Cybermat47 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:37 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:If you want compelling drama in a kaiju battle flick, your best bets are Godzilla Raids Again, The Terror of Mechagodzilla, or Gamera 3: Revenge of Iris.


I'd recommend Gamera: Guardian of the Universe over it's sequels, tbh.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:30 am

View Original Postmovieartman wrote:Sorry, can't agree. I think it was really poor & the 2nd worst of the franchise after Revenge


1985? Vs Biollante? GMK?

The only compelling character drama from 85 was Raymond Burr's performance. Biollante is good, but I saw Gamera 3 first, so I spent most of my time comparing it to that for some reason. GMK's revamped mythology upstages pretty much any human dramas in the film.

Now that I'm thinking of it, the Godzilla film with the most compelling human drama since the '54 film (and maybe Terror of) was All Monsters Attack. The monster scenes were objectively stupid, sure, but there is unarguably a very strong character study featuring Tomonori Yazaki's character Ichiro Miki, while director Ishiro Honda explores the decaying family life in 1970's urban Kawasaki, Japan. Ichiro's fantasies of Godzilla actually help to highlight the more wanting aspects of his home life. It's some pretty strong stuff.

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Postby Rei IV » Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:28 pm

Heisei Gamera trilogy totally owns the 90s Heisei Godzilla movies. You begin to realize the later are mostly colorful latter shows and Godzilla seemed to get bulkier as time went by.
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Postby movieartman » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:22 am

View Original PostRei IV wrote:Heisei Gamera trilogy totally owns the 90s Heisei Godzilla movies.

I would rank them as...
> Gam 3 = Vs Bio > Gam 2 > 85 > Vs KG = Vs MG2 = Vs Destroyah > Gam 1 >>> Space Godzilla > & Mothra

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Postby big papi classic » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:42 am

View Original Postmovieartman wrote:Sorry, can't agree. I think it was really poor & the 2nd worst of the franchise after Revenge


KKVG is a much more competently made film than 90% of the whole franchise. And Revenge isn't even that bad, it's better than most of the movies made after it. Especially the lazy, stale productions that made up the Heisei era of films.

It's a shame Wingard doesn't realize how silly a Godzilla and King Kong crossover is, because a "dark" crossover would fall flat on its face. Ishiro Honda and his production knew the idea was silly and Honda expertly weaved in criticism of exploitative commercialism into the mostly comedic film to the point where it was almost self loathing. I doubt Wingard is capable of doing anything as smart and self-aware as that.

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Postby movieartman » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:25 am

View Original Postbig papi classic wrote:KKVG is a much more competently made film than 90% of the whole franchise. And Revenge isn't even that bad, it's better than most of the movies made after it. Especially the lazy, stale productions that made up the Heisei era of films.

It's a shame Wingard doesn't realize how silly a Godzilla and King Kong crossover is, because a "dark" crossover would fall flat on its face. Ishiro Honda and his production knew the idea was silly and Honda expertly weaved in criticism of exploitative commercialism into the mostly comedic film to the point where it was almost self loathing. I doubt Wingard is capable of doing anything as smart and self-aware as that.

I am far past done with directors dismissing things as silly & being "self aware" around that belief, especially after the parody bullshit they seem to be doing with the upcoming Thor - Ragnarok.

On the Heisei films, I agree it was lazy of them to reuse Ghidorah, Mothra & Mecha G all in a row, however that was a result of Biollante failing at the box office. The city sets did get stale in the later films, however, 85 & vs Biollante I hold has having still to this day some of the most sleek modern sets & overall looks of the entire franchise, and I didn't find anything about vs Biollante to be lazy.

So sorry we are going to have to agree to strongly disagree. Which I find surprising since we agree on this...
View Original Postbig papi classic wrote:Speaking of Gareth Edwards, he should totally return to the MonsterVerse. The monster scenes in G14 have incredibly engaging visuals, and the build up to the set pieces are great. His direction on characters is lacking, and there's too little monster scenes for such a long movie, but the potential is there.

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Postby Cybermat47 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:50 pm

View Original Postmovieartman wrote:1985? Vs Biollante? GMK?


I haven't seen 1985, but it looks like a terrible film with little respect for the source material, with Raymond Burr being the only redeeming quality in a sea of jokes about Godzilla destroying Tokyo and a strange obsession with birds.

The original Japanese 1984 version of the film, however, is brilliant. No jokes, no pointless American scenes, and no defeating Godzilla with birdnoises.avi, just a dark, terrifying experience with Cold War commentary. The only thing it's missing is Raymond Burr. Because let's be honest, Raymond Burr is awesome.

I absolutely agree that GMK comes close to capturing the tone of 1954, though. Great film, with a message that Japan still needs.

I'd say that Godzilla Raids Again comes close to capturing 1954's tone as well, at least until Godzilla leaves Osaka (I think the film should have ended there, honestly). There's a sense of inevitable dread about Godzilla in this, and the footage of Osaka burning is horrifically similar to footage of Dresden or the Blitz.
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Godzilla VS Evangelion: Who Will Know?

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- Fate by Shirō Sagisu

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Postby movieartman » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:00 pm

View Original PostCybermat47 wrote:1 - I haven't seen 1985, but it looks like a terrible film with little respect for the source material, with Raymond Burr being the only redeeming quality in a sea of jokes about Godzilla destroying Tokyo and a strange obsession with birds.

The original Japanese 1984 version of the film, however, is brilliant. No jokes, no pointless American scenes, and no defeating Godzilla with birdnoises.avi, just a dark, terrifying experience with Cold War commentary. The only thing it's missing is Raymond Burr. Because let's be honest, Raymond Burr is awesome.

2 - I'd say that Godzilla Raids Again comes close to capturing 1954's tone as well, at least until Godzilla leaves Osaka (I think the film should have ended there, honestly). There's a sense of inevitable dread about Godzilla in this, and the footage of Osaka burning is horrifically similar to footage of Dresden or the Blitz.

1 - I have seen both versions, Give 85 a chance, it's not even a 5th as altered from the original cut as 1954 was. The Japanese cast is still the full focus of the film.
And the bird lure was in both versions.
None of Burr's scenes are all that jokey beyond some coke product placement. I liked the American military additions to give a glimpse of how the rest of the world views these events.
The cold war stuff is still present but they switched it around to make the Soviets launch the nuke on purpose which is a change I am indifferent too.
Some positive changes.
- The nuke collision scene is edited vastly better & more suspensefully in the 85 cut, in the Japanese cut they build up to it and then cut away only to return to it later as a after thought.
- New World kept the original score intact but added a few themes from Def-Con 4 (1985) which are great and fit the tone of the film perfectly and feel right at home alongside the original score.
Some samples
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FRvsRJYInM
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktqJyzPYCq0
- Some of the lesser special effects shots with the Cybot and such are removed.

2 - inclined to agree, Raids again is fairly underrated in the series.


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