Hollywood's "Ghost in the Shell"

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Re: Hollywood's "Ghost in the Shell"

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Postby Sachi » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:25 pm

That's extending my views too broadly. If something is marketed as Godzilla, I expect at least a Godzilla.
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Re: Hollywood's "Ghost in the Shell"

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Postby TheCarkolum » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:06 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:What you've said is exactly why I don't expect them to live up to the original. I don't want to experience franchise bias. I don't want to put them side by side and judge them. You said it turns a good product into a mediocre product. Why can't I just enjoy the good product AND the better product, without making the former mediocre? If I want to dive into the heavier themes, I'll always have the original. But don't get me wrong. I want the adaptation to be good as possible. I just don't expect the same thing as the original, so I don't get upset when it's not like the original.


I would agree, but the thing is GITS(2017) tries to imitate badly the original in several cases, and what it's worse, take some plot points of the original movie and throw them randomly into the movie in such a stupid, clumsy way. And that's the problem. My favorite example is:

- Well, how can we start the movie without ripping-off the original?

+ Easy man, just make the cybernetic brain a normal, stolen brain from a corpse, and introduce them to a foreign body.

- But that doesn't make any sense, nor the Ghost concept or the Shell concept.

+ Don't worry dude, just make them repeat a thousand times the words "Ghost" and "Shell" to trick the audience into thinking that it's a great, philosophical concept.

Another scene that this shitty movie rips off (or reinterpreted) poorly is the tank scene, and in this movie is a washed out version. You don't see the pain in Motoko, you don't feel the viscerality of the body been torn apart, it's so clean and innocuous that hasn't an impact of the viewer.

But by far, the most laughable ripped off plot point is the Puppet Master one. :D :D :D :D I mean, what an atrocity. They introduce so poorly the concept that the Puppet Master wants to do a wireless network... I mean, there are a bunch of random monks who are never mentioned again, and in the movie the entire point of the network is invalidated in such a stupid way... I mean, the guy says:

- Come with me to the network.

+ No.

- OK. (And then he dies)

What a waste of a plot point! I mean, beyond the ridiculous. That script is like a 5 years old version of the original...
Last edited by TheCarkolum on Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hollywood's "Ghost in the Shell"

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:33 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:That's extending my views too broadly. If something is marketed as Godzilla, I expect at least a Godzilla.

That expectation of Godzilla, the idea of Godzilla, even the fact that Godzilla is a "who" and not a "what," is informed by franchise bias. Apart from that bias, the title "Godzilla" is worthless. It's a meaningless word, even in the Japanese language. (The idea of it being a mix between "gorilla" and "whale" is mostly urban legend. The word has no linguistic meaning, not in English nor in Japanese.) If you watch a Godzilla movie, and expect Godzilla to be a character, then you've already failed at avoiding franchise bias.

Also, I don't understand the concept of willingly watching an installment of a franchise while also actively avoiding that franchise. It's objectively logically nonsensical. Either admit to watching a franchise or don't. It's okay to watch only one installment of that franchise, sure. But claiming any preference of avoiding a franchise while also watching an installment of that franchise is inherently an internal contradiction.

This isn't to say that we can't judge Scar Jo's Shell by its own merits apart from the original GitS. On it's own, the concept of cyborg humanoids in an action genre can open itself up to cool fight scenes where characters don't become tired over the length of the fight and can overcome most challenges with a sense of strength not seen in mere mortals. This can also allow the fight choreography to become more extreme, as the film has written itself a permit to have their characters withstand enormous stress without feeling pain or dying.

Scar Jo's Shell doesn't utilize that concept to its fullest. There are better choreographed fight scenes in Captain America movies where all the mortal human characters feel pain.

On the other hand, the concept of cyborg humanoids in a philosophical narrative can open itself up to the possibility of exploring a true sense of self. It can ask questions about the meaning of life and explore them in a unique and clever way, showing it from a perspective that challenges previously-held compacts of what life is. It can explore existentialism in a way that is genuinely intriguing, making the audience think long after the film has ended.

Scar Jo's Shell doesn't utilize that concept to its fullest. There is better existential exploration in Millennium Actress, where all of the mortal human characters are aren't cyborgs.

These aren't standards being placed on the film by comparing it to the original. Scar Jo's Shell literally incorporates these elements, but handles them in a way that fulfills none of the narrative potentials to which the film itself had alluded. Without seeing the original GitS, many audiences were still left Scar Jo's Shell feeling like they saw a far less impressive, less intriguing, more inferior Matrix movie. And that's simply because The Matrix alluded to the same narrative possibilities and actually delivered on all of them.
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Re: Hollywood's "Ghost in the Shell"

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:49 pm

To sum it up (and paraphrasing your point, Sachi), when I see a Ghost in the Shell movie, I expect a damned good movie.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Re: Hollywood's "Ghost in the Shell"

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Postby Sachi » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:49 pm

I think I express moderate views, but everyone is taking them extremely and literally. I still believe it's a setup for failure to expect something of the same level as the original, and I still don't want adaptations to try to repeat the original. What's the point?
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Re: Hollywood's "Ghost in the Shell"

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:35 pm

Consider how many remakes are coming out right now, which are getting poor reviews when compared to the original. You can't have a standalone film when it's part of a franchise, or when it is a direct remake of a previous film. It's especially true when you're talking about a franchise that has several fantastic properties in it: it might be too much to ask for it to live up to 1 film, but it has to live up to two films, five ovas, a series, and a manga. You can't realistically expect it to be detached from those, especially when it's so blatantly draws upon the imagery and setup of the entire franchise: they are freely grabbing characters and set piece arrangements from the series as well as the film.

Clearly, they were more than aware of the multiple contributions to the franchise, and yet they got lazy making this movie. And they did: there were so many blunders in the making of this thing, it's really a lot to ask anyone to try and hold it apart from the rest of the franchise.

And I don't think it's right to give it a pass: that's how subpar movies continue to get made. If the filmmakers thought they could not make a film to the standard of the previously set films, they simply should not have made this film. That is the risk in the agreement you make if you go into a top-notch franchise to make a contribution: you as the artist have to live up to what was put before you. If you think that it's unfair or too much to ask to do that, then you simply shouldn't make your movie.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Rei wanted to know what waffles tasted like.
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Come read EVA Sessions! This place has it, too! There'll be pizza! Not really! There are other things, too! Not EVA Sessions! Did I mention the pizza!?

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Re: Hollywood's "Ghost in the Shell"

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Postby Sachi » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:08 am

I don't understand the moral high ground regarding bad movies either. How dare they try and fail? How dare they be content with with something not perfect? They should have never tried making films in the first place, even if it introduces new audiences to the franchise at large. While we're at it, same goes for everybody in any career they pursue.

I was under the impression anybody could create whatever they want. I can find enjoyment in even bad films. I'm sorry that their very existence offends your senses.

And again, you guys are taking what I said about franchise bias too far and too literally. I'm not saying these adaptations exist in complete vaccums. But I'm not going to make the adaptation bear the albatross of the original and condemn it for being different or inferior. Because of this, I had fun with Scar Jo. Of course I'm going to prefer the original, but I appreciate her version for what it is. Once again: GiTS lite for when I'm not in the mood or don't have the time for the other versions.
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Re: Hollywood's "Ghost in the Shell"

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Postby Glor » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:29 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:I don't understand the moral high ground regarding bad movies either.

You are literally Hitler for not hating this movie, Sachi, haha. GitS was entertaining enough, with some great stunts and visual effects. It wasn't mind blowing, but I don't hate it. Never expected it to be any of Mamoru's usual work. You know, because he didn't produce it.
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Re: Hollywood's "Ghost in the Shell"

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:56 am

I certainly don't want a repeat of GitS, but I don't think that's what people mean when they say that they wanted Scar Jo's Shell to "live up the original." They simply mean that they want something of good quality; something as good as the original without being the original. I think that was possible with Scar Jo's Shell, but that possibility was squandered with aimless directing and half-assed writing.
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Re: Hollywood's "Ghost in the Shell"

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:59 am

And there's a big difference between taking the moral High Ground and demanding a product of quality: the latter is what we are doing. If I go to a 4-star restaurant that's known for its steaks, and I get a two and a half star dining experience, it's not taking the moral High Ground to say that the dining experience sucked and should have been better compared to the other dining experiences at that restaurant, especially if I've eaten that restaurant before and know what they consider quality.

And you are right: anyone can create anything they want. If it's not good it's going to be criticized, but they are free to create it. But saying that is under playing the fact that this is not a standalone work of art that somebody had a vision of, and struggled years to make it: this was a business arrangement. This was a licensed property entry into a series of multiple properties, and that can't be separated when discussing the quality of the film.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
-Sorrow

Rei wanted to know what waffles tasted like.
-Literary Eagle

We have to remember what's important in life: friends, waffles, and work. Or waffles, friends, and work. But work has to come in third.
-Leslie Knope

Come read EVA Sessions! This place has it, too! There'll be pizza! Not really! There are other things, too! Not EVA Sessions! Did I mention the pizza!?

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Re: Hollywood's "Ghost in the Shell"

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Postby Sachi » Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:23 am

I don't think the restaurant analogy works. A better analogy along those lines is authentic Chinese food versus American Chinese food. You simply don't expect the same experience between the two of them. You may be ordering the same food, but it's not from the same restaurant.
"Chaos is merely a human construct. The world only knows its own natural law of harmony and order."
"So you are saying it's the human heart that throws the world into confusion."


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