Who was Kaworu's body a clone of?

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Who was Kaworu's body a clone of?

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Postby AdamMalkobitch » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:14 pm

So Rei's body is a clone of that of Yui Ikari's, and she holds the soul of Lilith, while Kaworu holds the soul of Adam. Now I don't know if there's any solid evidence anywhere in NGE or EoE, but does anyone have any clue who's body Kaworu's was cloned from? It's likely someone from Seele, since they created him. A young Chairman Kiel maybe?
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Re: Who was Kaworu's body a clone of?

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Postby thewayneiac » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:01 pm

My pet theory is that he's a somehow gender-switched clone of Misato. There had to be some good reason why she was there. You don't normally take your daughter on a dangerous top secret mission just for the hell of it.
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Re: Who was Kaworu's body a clone of?

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:47 pm

Two options:

A. Dr. Katsuragi
B. Random nobody

I'll take A.

This has come up many times in the past, so it's easier to just provide some links that reiterate all of the arguments:

thread/17483/Theories-Who-is-Kaworus-Donor/
thread/15487/What-was-Seele-trying-to-achieve-with-Adam-CE-Second-Impact/
thread/8629/Could-Kaworu-Rei-and-Shinji-be-siblings/
thread/2265/In-the-case-of-Kaworu/

thewayneiac: Your idea, pet theory or no, really doesn't make any sense. You seem intent on the idea that Misato has to be there for some nefarious reason that necessarily involves experimenting on her, when nothing bears this out. Why in the world would it be her DNA? What's so special about it that her dad brings her down there for the sole purpose of making HER the donor? There are plenty of potential donors already at the base for whom pesky questions like "why is Kaworu male if the donor is female?" and "why does Kaworu look nothing like the donor (when that's the side of the family he necessarily must be getting his looks from)?" do not need to be asked, which makes any one of them a far better option.

As for why Misato is there, it could be any number of perfectly sensible reasons.
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Maybe her mom is dead and she doesn't have anyone else to stay with. (Quite possible -- custody in Japan defaults to the mother, so if she's with her dad instead...) Maybe her dad isn't all there in the head, and wants Misato to see the importance of his work first-hand, because he's laboring under the belief that it will make her better appreciate the reason he didn't pay enough attention to her when she was younger. Maybe he's the donor himself, and is pulling a Yui by wanting Misato to see him usher in the bright future or whatever. Picking and choosing something that isn't contrived should be simple enough.
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Re: Who was Kaworu's body a clone of?

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Postby TheCarkolum » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:38 pm

Maybe is the original body of the guy who was merged with Adam?
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Re: Who was Kaworu's body a clone of?

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Postby AdamMalkobitch » Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:30 pm

View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:Maybe is the original body of the guy who was merged with Adam?

That's what I had gone with for a while up until a few minutes ago. Watching Death, when Ritsuko's mother chokes Rei I, you can see Kaworu reflected in her eyes when her head is upside down, and the pencil sketch of him with the red background flashes onscreen right before she dies. Seems like a really strange detail. Maybe, like how Lilith takes on both the form of Rei and Kaworu, he is somehow a genderswap of Rei's body? Although it is from the Manga release, so they might have just added that because they're Manga.
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Re: Who was Kaworu's body a clone of?

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Postby Kendrix » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:35 pm

Whoever donated the DNA used in the contact experiment with Adam probably, though he seems to be considerably less human-esque than Rei & wasn't really shown to have the same hybrid frailties (pills etc.)
She couldn't remote control an EVA either, and he does still somehow 'count' as an individual Angel.

Could be someone we know with sybolic value (Gendo, Katsuragi, Keel) or just a random scientist, even a random person a cell culture was taken from.


If he was supposed to be a "gender-swapped Rei" the resemblance would've been pointed out more I think, or they'd have more similar color palettes (their hair being the same shade etc. ) - I think that bit from "Death" was more about either parallelism/aesthetic or his being Rei I's transistion guide.
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Re: Who was Kaworu's body a clone of?

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Postby Sachi » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:57 pm

Things "counting" as Angels doesn't mean much. We already know the number system is flawed, since it includes Adam, Lilith, Kaworu, and Lilin, yet never recognizes Rei as one. It's a fundamentally flawed system that only counts what it sees (and IMO, should only be used to describe Adam's children, not literally everybody). Rei is never counted because she never reveals herself. Her not being able to remote control an Eva is due to her lack of awareness of identity, not lack of ability; episode 24 tells us as much when her power level is equal to Kaworu's.
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Re: Who was Kaworu's body a clone of?

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Postby Reichu » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:55 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Could be someone we know with sybolic value (Gendo, Katsuragi, Keel) or just a random scientist, even a random person a cell culture was taken from.

The show refers to a "contact experiment with the donor", which strongly implies that the donor was a live test subject. This is also implied by the use of the term "contact experiment" -- the two other procedures called this involve live test subjects, and NGE uses the word "contact" (sesshoku) in a more meaningful way than a mere cell culture could attain.

A live test subject also explains why an impact would be triggered in response to the contact, working from analogy with Gendo triggering Rei (Lilith) and the hypothetical impact triggered by an Angel reaching Lilith.

Dr. Katsuragi is the only named character who could reasonably be the donor, because he was actually there to participate and he, unlike Misato, is male. The limited glimpse of him also works out far better in terms of physical resemblance -- his face has a rather typical biseinen shape. Hence the two options I listed upstream.
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Re: Who was Kaworu's body a clone of?

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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:26 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Dr. Katsuragi is the only named character who could reasonably be the donor, because he was actually there to participate. Hence the two options I listed upstream.



I know this might be a bit over reaching, but is it possible that when Akira touches Adam, she takes his hand ala Gendo and Rei, thus giving her the designated "Lilin DNA" and letting him go afterwards (just like how we see Gendo sort of just standing there as GNR floats off in EoE)?

This would not only explain his part in the triggering of Second Impact, but also as to why we see him alive long enough to save Misato just before everything goes BOOM! and Adam's Chamber of Guf opens.

What do you think?

Also, Greek mythology describes the Giant Impact meteor as "Theia," mother to the being that created the moon. In Greek mythology, the moon is also associated with Hecate, a three headed goddess of witchcraft. Given the connection to Lilith, Rei, and the Moon, do you suppose Anno did some research regarding Greek Mythology to come up with Rei's associations OR is it possible this is just a HUGE coincidence?

What do you think?
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Re: Who was Kaworu's body a clone of?

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Postby thewayneiac » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:54 pm

View Original PostAdamMalkobitch wrote:That's what I had gone with for a while up until a few minutes ago. Watching Death, when Ritsuko's mother chokes Rei I, you can see Kaworu reflected in her eyes when her head is upside down, and the pencil sketch of him with the red background flashes onscreen right before she dies. Seems like a really strange detail. Maybe, like how Lilith takes on both the form of Rei and Kaworu, he is somehow a genderswap of Rei's body? Although it is from the Manga release, so they might have just added that because they're Manga.


Manga didn't add any extra animation that I'm aware of. My thought has always been that the Kaworu reflection is Rei III using a Kaworu avatar to collect Rei One's soul. Similarly, the Gendo image as Rei II self destructs is Rei III collecting Rei Two's soul in Gendo guise. This explains why all three are in instrumentality as seperate beings despite all having Lilith's soul.
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Re: Who was Kaworu's body a clone of?

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Postby silvermoonlight » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:39 am

I think it's Kozo Fuyutsuki because he says hello father in rebuild when he sees both Gendo and Kozo in space and I thought he can't be referring to Gendo, which made me think his father must be Kozo.
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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:15 am

You forget that NTE Kaworu lives in a different continuity, which likely means a different origin, especially considering how different he is from his NGE counterpart
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Re: Who was Kaworu's body a clone of?

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Postby silvermoonlight » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:03 am

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:You forget that NTE Kaworu lives in a different continuity, which likely means a different origin, especially considering how different he is from his NGE counterpart


Good point I had not considered that and that may explain why those two look very different in some respects as the manga/anime one has greyish hair where as the rebuild one its really white.
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