What is the inspiration/reasoning behind the Angel's design?
Moderator: Board Staff
Forum rules
By visiting this forum, you agree to read the rules for discussion and abide by them.
By visiting this forum, you agree to read the rules for discussion and abide by them.
- Mr. Tines
- Administrator
- Age: 66
- Posts: 21373
- Joined: Nov 23, 2004
- Location: This sceptered isle.
- Gender: Male
- Contact:
SPOILER: Show
Ghost angels? Send for Panty and Stocking!
Reminder: Play nicely <<>> My vanity publishing:- NGE|blog|Photos|retro-blog|Fanfics &c.|MAL|𝕏|🐸|🦣
Avatar: art deco Asuka
Avatar: art deco Asuka
- shinji_ryoji_89
- Shamshel
- Age: 34
- Posts: 263
- Joined: Jun 12, 2010
- Location: Mexico
- Gender: Male
- Contact:
- thewayneiac
- Committeeperson
- Posts: 1632
- Joined: Aug 26, 2004
- Location: How Kaworu got to the Moon
As always, there's a big problem with the "Angel Ghost" theory:
The number of monoliths doesn't match the the number of dead Angels properly unless you count Israfel as two Angels. The problem is that this messes up the Angel count. Mankind would come out the 19th instead of the 18th. All known canon sources count him as just one Angel. The clear implication is that he has just one soul divided between the two cores. Thus there should only be 14, monoliths not 15 if these were supposed to be Angel Ghosts.
Also, they're saying things that it makes sense for Seele to say, given their duplicity towards Kaworu. Wouldn't the Angels appear as themselves and say something more like, "O.K. Mom, we were all defeated. Our only chance is for you to get in there and win this for us.!"
In Ep. 21, Fuyutsuki says "Seele itself, not the Comittee," not "All of Seele itself, not the Comittee." There are more Monoliths because they had a bigger budget.
This is certainly Seele. Now as to how they appear to him but not Misato.... your guess is as good as mine.
The number of monoliths doesn't match the the number of dead Angels properly unless you count Israfel as two Angels. The problem is that this messes up the Angel count. Mankind would come out the 19th instead of the 18th. All known canon sources count him as just one Angel. The clear implication is that he has just one soul divided between the two cores. Thus there should only be 14, monoliths not 15 if these were supposed to be Angel Ghosts.
Also, they're saying things that it makes sense for Seele to say, given their duplicity towards Kaworu. Wouldn't the Angels appear as themselves and say something more like, "O.K. Mom, we were all defeated. Our only chance is for you to get in there and win this for us.!"
In Ep. 21, Fuyutsuki says "Seele itself, not the Comittee," not "All of Seele itself, not the Comittee." There are more Monoliths because they had a bigger budget.
This is certainly Seele. Now as to how they appear to him but not Misato.... your guess is as good as mine.
Rejoice, glory is ours. Our young men have not died in vain. Their graves need no flowers. The tapes have recorded their names.
I am all there is.
Negative! Primative! Limited! I let you live.
But I gave you life.
What else could you do?
To do what was right.
I'm perfect, are you?
I am all there is.
Negative! Primative! Limited! I let you live.
But I gave you life.
What else could you do?
To do what was right.
I'm perfect, are you?
- Reichu
- Admin Emeritus
- Posts: 24046
- Joined: Aug 21, 2004
- Location: Sailing for the white shores
- Gender: Female
- Contact:
I don't see a problem with a two-souled Angel being listed as one. Just look at the 18th. Clearly the parameters for delineating individual Angels are flexible. Sadamoto, for whatever he is worth, gives the Angel two cores when it's in fully combined form, so apparently he buys into the two-souled idea. Masayuki (who did all the storyboarding and stuff for 24') could have felt the same way, but I doubt we'll ever know. Israfel's case is probably doomed to ambiguity forever.
Saying that 15 monoliths only appear in #24 because of increased budget is a flawed argument, since only 12 appear in End of Evangelion, which was part of the same project. (And one would also expect ALL of Seele to show up for the moment they've all been waiting for; three being MIA for the Third Impact ceremony just doesn't seem to slice it.)
Obviously the dialogue in the lake scene isn't being spoken by Angels, but this could be one of those wacky two-things-happening-at-once scenes. Possibly, Kaworu's two major conflicting imperatives are being presented as once. He's at the site of the Angels' last stand, standing on the angel statue and contemplating his nature as one, as their ghosts surround him and make a silent plea. At the same time, he's thinking about what the committee (the only Seele members actually talking) told him, and his scripted role according to "the Lilin".
Something like that.
Saying that 15 monoliths only appear in #24 because of increased budget is a flawed argument, since only 12 appear in End of Evangelion, which was part of the same project. (And one would also expect ALL of Seele to show up for the moment they've all been waiting for; three being MIA for the Third Impact ceremony just doesn't seem to slice it.)
Obviously the dialogue in the lake scene isn't being spoken by Angels, but this could be one of those wacky two-things-happening-at-once scenes. Possibly, Kaworu's two major conflicting imperatives are being presented as once. He's at the site of the Angels' last stand, standing on the angel statue and contemplating his nature as one, as their ghosts surround him and make a silent plea. At the same time, he's thinking about what the committee (the only Seele members actually talking) told him, and his scripted role according to "the Lilin".
Something like that.
Last edited by Reichu on Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog
- shinji_ryoji_89
- Shamshel
- Age: 34
- Posts: 263
- Joined: Jun 12, 2010
- Location: Mexico
- Gender: Male
- Contact:
- The Flying Fortress
- Adam
- Age: 27
- Posts: 52
- Joined: May 14, 2017
- Gender: Male
Why NECESSARILY do the last 3 angels have those appearances?
We have a luminescent bird, an equally bright eel and lastly a boy, Yes, I know, you're going to say that they all represent a symbolic sequence of the angelic stereotype of Christianity and so it's not worth discussing, but the question is , This is the height of symbolism! , what happened ? , They ran out of imagination or something? , Where were those creative and mysterious aliens from before? I understand the 17th angel to be a kid because there's a justification in the plot, but the other two are just vague, that's what I guess what the creators were thinking:
"Okay, we need to create the last three angels, how about we make one more vague reference to Christianity as an angel's body?
- Great idea ! , Kaworu will be the body and the others ... hum ... others may be wings and a halo itself (they do not matter).
"Okay, we need to create the last three angels, how about we make one more vague reference to Christianity as an angel's body?
- Great idea ! , Kaworu will be the body and the others ... hum ... others may be wings and a halo itself (they do not matter).
Re: Why NECESSARILY do the last 3 angels have those appearances?
You give Arael and Armisael too little credit. They're equally as important as Zeruel when it comes to character and plot development. While Zeruel marked a turning point for Shinji and Unit-01, Arael did the same for Asuka, and Armisael the same for Rei. Without those two, Kaworu's entrance and the rest of Ep 24 wouldn't have really worked, since Asuka needed to be out of commission, and Rei needed to start realizing her true identity.
Also, Armisael is potentially the most powerful Angel. Imagine if it has been successful in merging with Unit-00, and completed the Angel tower?
Also, Armisael is potentially the most powerful Angel. Imagine if it has been successful in merging with Unit-00, and completed the Angel tower?
- pwhodges
- A Lilin in Wonderland
- Age: 77
- Posts: 11035
- Joined: Nov 18, 2012
- Location: Oxford, UK
- Contact:
Re: Why NECESSARILY do the last 3 angels have those appearances?
I think the OP is referring only to their visual appearances, not to how they operate and interact. But I must confess that it has never occurred to me to associate them with specific aspects of religious angels.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: The end of the journey (details); Past avatars.
Before 3.0+1.0 there was Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: The end of the journey (details); Past avatars.
Before 3.0+1.0 there was Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)
- CommanderFish
- Shamshel
- Age: 24
- Posts: 266
- Joined: Jul 31, 2016
- Gender: Male
Re: Why NECESSARILY do the last 3 angels have those appearances?
But even then I don't really agree. Arael looks pretty cool, imo. And Armisael is great because it sort of represents NGE's mix of science (with the double helix) and religion (the halo). And then it also gets pretty phallic, later on; so it touches just about all sides of Eva.
EDIT: got ninja'd by pwhodges, but you get the point
"The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth"
- The Flying Fortress
- Adam
- Age: 27
- Posts: 52
- Joined: May 14, 2017
- Gender: Male
- robersora
- Laissez-faire in Moderation
- Age: 32
- Posts: 4437
- Joined: May 17, 2011
- Location: Europe, Austria
- Gender: Male
Re: Why NECESSARILY do the last 3 angels have those appearances?
I understand where you're coming from. Armisael and Arael were both completely featureless due to seemingly being comprised of light, but Ramiel was an octahedron which is also very abstract... Leliel was a zebra ball, Bardiel was bacterial goo and Iruel was a red-blinking Computervirus... which seems pretty abstract to me already.
As cool as the design for the "ordinary" Angels is, I for one am a sucker for those abstract designs of the later Angels.
As cool as the design for the "ordinary" Angels is, I for one am a sucker for those abstract designs of the later Angels.
2Q||3.33 _ 神殺しを行う
Decadent Stoned Slacker Socialist
Decadent Stoned Slacker Socialist
- Cybermat47
- Clockiel
- Age: 24
- Posts: 418
- Joined: Jun 20, 2017
- Location: NSW, Australia
- Gender: Male
Re: Why NECESSARILY do the last 3 angels have those appearances?
Personally, I find the later Angels scarier because of their appearance... they're lifeforms far more advanced than Lilin, or even the earlier Angels.
Reichu wrote:It’s all weird and phallic.
- TheCarkolum
- Tunniel
- Posts: 163
- Joined: Jun 07, 2017
Re: Why NECESSARILY do the last 3 angels have those appearances?
But they are not sacrificing anything. Their designs are maybe the best of all. In fact, the symbolism doesn't even bother or matter. So, I don't see any problem.
BTW, I'm an Armisael fanboy. It's the only angel that hasn't almost any weak spots, and boy do I wish we're shown more of that angel, because it's also the only one that left me with the feeling of curiosity. I wanna now more about that angel.
“The tragedy of growing old is not that one is old but that one is young.” - Oscar Wilde
"Remember kids, a smart man knows when it's time to RUN LIKE A LITTLE BITCH!!"
"Remember kids, a smart man knows when it's time to RUN LIKE A LITTLE BITCH!!"
Re: Why NECESSARILY do the last 3 angels have those appearances?
Are these two Angels necessarily more Christian than the other Angels? Armisael is more of a double helix than a halo, and when also considering that it's the Angel of the Womb, the Angel is more associated with birth and reproduction, than anything necessary "angelic" or "christian". Meanwhile, other Angels are producing cross explosions.
- DarkBluePhoenix
- Pilot
- Age: 31
- Posts: 2020
- Joined: Aug 01, 2016
- Location: Somewhere between the light in my heart and the darkness in my soul
- Gender: Male
- Contact:
Re: Why NECESSARILY do the last 3 angels have those appearances?
Well, considering all the Angel's names are referenced in some sort of religious texts, and simply the fact that they're called Angels means the connection was bound to happen sooner or later, but I wouldn't call them more religious than any of the others. As for their forms, Arael is the Angel of birds, so looking like glowing wings or a bird made from lightning. As for Armisael, I always thought of its double helix form as it symbolizing what humans are made up of/what makes life possible. As for Tabris being representative of free-will it seems the only logical form for him to take is of a human, the embodiment of free-will.
So basically, the last three Angels representing three parts of an Angel (and coincidentally God) is just happenstance.
Also found this fun list of all known Angels and Archangels. Thought it might be relevant or appreciated.
So basically, the last three Angels representing three parts of an Angel (and coincidentally God) is just happenstance.
Hello Third Impact without Shinji causing it, with Rei in charge of Instrumentality.Sachi wrote:Also, Armisael is potentially the most powerful Angel. Imagine if it has been successful in merging with Unit-00, and completed the Angel tower?
Also found this fun list of all known Angels and Archangels. Thought it might be relevant or appreciated.
Avatar - Heero Yuy, pilot of Wing Gundam Zero. If you want to read my NGE fanfic go to my profile here - DarkBluePhoenix on FanFiction.net or DarkBluePhoenix on AO3
Voted in college to be Most likely to Take Over the World, how to do that however, will require at least Four Evangelions. Thanks for the idea Misato-san!
"Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." Said at the beginning of the nuclear age by J. Robert Oppenheimer.
"That which does not kill us makes us stronger." Words of Wisdom from German Philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche.
Voted in college to be Most likely to Take Over the World, how to do that however, will require at least Four Evangelions. Thanks for the idea Misato-san!
"Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." Said at the beginning of the nuclear age by J. Robert Oppenheimer.
"That which does not kill us makes us stronger." Words of Wisdom from German Philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche.
- The Flying Fortress
- Adam
- Age: 27
- Posts: 52
- Joined: May 14, 2017
- Gender: Male
Re: Why NECESSARILY do the last 3 angels have those appearances?
Before there was only nomenclature as a reference to Christian angels, but look at Ramiel as an example, even though they were already vague, let's see:
'' Râmîêl (Aramaic: רעמאנל, Hebrew: רעמיאל, Greek: 'Ραμιήλ) is both fallen observer and angel in the apocryphal book of Enoch. Ramiel means "thunder of God" [1] of the Hebrew ra'am elements and El, "God"
Okay, I see just one deadly octahedron with assault skills who wants to get to Lilith, what does he have as a messenger of god in that? What message will it deliver?
As Arael is the angel of the birds, why does he have wings? , Why does he shine?, is it just because he's '' dinivo '' or something?, Because he's the angel of the birds? , Do we see him controlling the birds? , Is not he from another planet? I'm confused.
They simply take the names but do not delve into their meaning, this is a lazy job, Armisael and Arael were shaped to represent a vague symbolism, yes, it is casual, but pregoited.
'' Râmîêl (Aramaic: רעמאנל, Hebrew: רעמיאל, Greek: 'Ραμιήλ) is both fallen observer and angel in the apocryphal book of Enoch. Ramiel means "thunder of God" [1] of the Hebrew ra'am elements and El, "God"
Okay, I see just one deadly octahedron with assault skills who wants to get to Lilith, what does he have as a messenger of god in that? What message will it deliver?
As Arael is the angel of the birds, why does he have wings? , Why does he shine?, is it just because he's '' dinivo '' or something?, Because he's the angel of the birds? , Do we see him controlling the birds? , Is not he from another planet? I'm confused.
They simply take the names but do not delve into their meaning, this is a lazy job, Armisael and Arael were shaped to represent a vague symbolism, yes, it is casual, but pregoited.
- Blockio
- Full/Super Moderator
- Age: 24
- Posts: 3839
- Joined: Dec 03, 2017
- Location: vtuber hell
- Gender: Male
a possible inspiration for the design of Leliel
During WWI, the US and british navy was experimenting with something called "dazzling camoflague". It consisted of irregular patterns of mostly stripes, usually dominated by black and white with a few other colors thrown in the mix.
Unlike traditional camouflague, the purpose was not to disguise the ship, but rather to make it harder to identify the ship type and to throw off the aim of the vessels attacking it and increasing the chance of the ships artillery being missed by the incoming fire.
Sounds familiar? It should, because this is exactly what happens with Leliel, although in a different way: The black and white shadow tricks NERV and the pilots into thinking that it is the body (making it harder to identify the target), and thus attrackts all the fire, while the actual body is left unnoticed until it is too late (throwing off the aim and leaving the means of attacking undamaged)
Still not convinced? Then take a look at this camo pattern of the HMS Argus:
a few examples SPOILER: Show
Unlike traditional camouflague, the purpose was not to disguise the ship, but rather to make it harder to identify the ship type and to throw off the aim of the vessels attacking it and increasing the chance of the ships artillery being missed by the incoming fire.
Sounds familiar? It should, because this is exactly what happens with Leliel, although in a different way: The black and white shadow tricks NERV and the pilots into thinking that it is the body (making it harder to identify the target), and thus attrackts all the fire, while the actual body is left unnoticed until it is too late (throwing off the aim and leaving the means of attacking undamaged)
Still not convinced? Then take a look at this camo pattern of the HMS Argus:
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu
- The Eva Monkey
- IT'S OVER 9000!!!
- Posts: 9109
- Joined: Jun 14, 2004
- Location: The Evanets.
- Gender: Male
- Contact:
Re: a possible inspiration for the design of Leliel
In The Evangelion Style, Yasutaka Yoshimura attributes the design to the mod fashion trend of the 1960s in his article about 60's motifs in Evangelion.
Something to consider:
Something to consider:
- Blockio
- Full/Super Moderator
- Age: 24
- Posts: 3839
- Joined: Dec 03, 2017
- Location: vtuber hell
- Gender: Male
Re: a possible inspiration for the design of Leliel
Oh... well, there goes that theory.
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu
Return to “Evangelion TV Series + EoE Discussion”
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests