Were all the Angels headed the wrong way?

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Were all the Angels headed the wrong way?

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Postby Igotaname » Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:08 pm

In episode 24 Kaworu, a real life angel sent by Seele and possibly even institutionalized by Seele, gets down to Terminal Dogma. Only to actually give up and let Shinji destroy him. His reasons aside, what about the other Angels?
Kaworu was going down there to finally unite his slice of Adam with Adam, in this case his soul. What did the other Angels bring to the table uniting with Adam? Just another bit of his power? All adding up?

Would they all have given up like Kaworu once they got to Terminal Dogma and realized or either sensed it was Lilith?
Are some Angels mindless enough that they would have actually bonded with Lilith and reached that "Godly" state humanity feared the most?
Were some just actually trying to get to Gendo with his Adam embryo?

Is there any little hints or evidence the show has dropped that I've missed that could answer my questions?

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Re: Were all the Angels headed the wrong way?

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Postby Director Black » Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:38 pm

Kawarou was informed by SEELE that Lilith was being held in Terminal Dogma, but it's never quite explained why he went there anyway, but that's a topic for another day.

But the rest of the angels were heading the right way. While Kaji had the fossilized Adam in a case, leaving Gaghiel to attack the ships, the previous angels (Sachiel, Shamshel and Ramiel) were most likely heading to NERV to retrieve Adam (Or to just cause destruction seeing as how the angels in the first arc aren't that smart).

Would they all have given up like Kaworu once they got to Terminal Dogma and realized or either sensed it was Lilith?


As smart as angels like Zeurel or Leliel can be, Kaworu actually had the ability to think since he's part human.
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Re: Were all the Angels headed the wrong way?

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:44 pm

According to the translations of the Classified Information Files:
D. In-Depth Information
Two Seeds of Life are not needed on one planet, and, therefore, one of them is excluded. As recorded in the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls, Adam-based life took part in a contest of survival, putting the stakes on their own existence. Some of them were trying to access Lilith and reset all life, some of them had nothing in mind, and some were trying to recover their progenitor Adam. The Angels — Adam-based life — became active under their respective tactics for survival and success.

An example of an angel with nothing in mind would likely be Sandalphon. It's not a statement I can make with certainty since it hadn't grown from an embryonic state yet, but it wasn't active until bothered by NERV. The Angels appearing before Adam's embryo was delivered to Gendo were certainly intentionally heading for Lilith. Gaghiel was definitely going after Adam, too. However, it's not clear which progenitor the Angels who attacked Tokyo-3 afterwards were going after. Another set of angels that could've been trying to do their own thing were the ones that attempted to communicate with the humans.

In any case, none of the Angels were likely confused over where Adam and Lilith were. Think about it, Gaghiel sensed where Adam was and attacked. Angels have to go through some hoops in order to communicate with humans, so it isn't like it somehow overheard that Adam was being transported somewhere. Same goes for the other Angels. They didn't hear that Adam was in Terminal Dogma (like a majority of the crew at NERV who were privy to an Angel being down there were told, despite it being a lie), they could sense that it was Lilith. Even though Kaworu acted surprised to find out it wasn't Adam on the cross, but Lilith, he already knew it was Lilith. One way we know is what Director Black just told us--in the director's cut, we see Kaworu having a conversation with the SEELE monoliths, and they inform him directly that Lilith is in Terminal Dogma. Aside from that, Kaworu, as an Angel, ought to be able to sense whether it is Lilith or not. That much is certain just based on the scene where he acts surprised and announces that it's Lilith. Now, whether he was confused and could sense both Adam and Lilith in proximity of each other because Adam is in Gendo's hand could be up for debate, but Kaworu is easily the most powerful Angel based on what's said about his AT Field (with the exception of Rei maybe), and given he's Adam's soul, it seems likely he should be able to tell the difference just by sense, especially considering the other Angels were capable of doing so.

The only real discussion about Kaworu and his surprise is why exactly he put on that show. When it comes to the other Angels, there technically isn't a wrong way for them to go. Any Angel that makes contact with Lilith would reset all life on the Earth. The same would happen if an Angel made contact with Adam. The result would be another impact where an Anti-AT Field large enough to "kill" everything would be produced, and from there life could start anew. I'm guessing the Anti-AT Field produced would even go so far as to affect the other Progenitor Angel, and effectively only one Progenitor would be left to reproduce once again, and allow her (I use the pronoun "her" lightly here, the Progenitor Angels, especially if fused, strike me more as being androgynous than being particularly feminine--especially considering they are more or less representations of the concept of Adam Kadmon, the "original", giant androgynous human of whom all souls come from after being split up into individual humans during the Genesis) children to inherit the Earth. The only time a God is formed is if both Progenitor Angels come into contact with one another with both their bodies and souls in tact.

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Re: Were all the Angels headed the wrong way?

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Postby CommanderFish » Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:36 pm

Director Black wrote:...the previous angels (Sachiel, Shamshel and Ramiel) were most likely heading to NERV to retrieve Adam (Or to just cause destruction seeing as how the angels in the first arc aren't that smart).

Wait... you meant Lilith, right?
Also, I wouldn't necessarily say the first-arc angels aren't smart, but I guess I would have to hear your reasoning on that.

Anyways, on that note...
StrokeMeGoat wrote:Any Angel that makes contact with Lilith would reset all life on the Earth.

I've always been confused as to why the angels would actually want to make contact with Lilith. I mean, what exactly would they accomplish with this? When lilin did the contact experiment with Adam, it was specifically Lilith-based life that was wiped out in that area. So wouldn't all the Adam-based life be wiped out if the angels did the same thing with Lilith? Lilith is going to work to insure that her children are the ones who live on, after all. I mean, it's either that, or all life (angels and lilin) is wiped out; but that's the same fundamental outcome from the angel's point of view. I understand why SEELE wouldn't want this (seeing as they need Adam for their whole HIP thing), but I don't really understand why the angels would. This has just never made sense to me, but I could easily be missing something.

StrokeMeGoat wrote:Now, whether he was confused and could sense both Adam and Lilith in proximity of each other because Adam is in Gendo's hand could be up for debate...

It's either this or they made a mistake in the DC script. I'm able to live with either, really.
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Re: Were all the Angels headed the wrong way?

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:42 pm

Actually, I believe Kaworu knew Lilith was Lilith from the start, no confusion. He was putting on a show for Rei, it seems like. It makes very little sense based on what I already lined out in my other post to suggest he could become confused about who was who. It's possible he was, but I really doubt it was the case.

As far as why the Angels would want to reset life by coming into contact with Lilith: if what I said about the Anti-AT Field affecting the other progenitor is true, then you'd be right. I'm not sure exactly how all it would work, but it's not fair to say that only Lilin AT Fields were dissolved in Antarctica, there weren't any Angels around, so we have no idea how it would have affected them. It very likely would've had the same effect on them as it did any Lilith-based lifeforms. What I assume is that wiping out the Lilin and other Lilith-based lifeforms, even at the cost of their own lives, would pave the way for other Adam-based lifeforms to take over the Earth. The exact mechanics behind how that would happen are up for speculation. As far as we are able to tell based on the information available, Angels making contact with either Progenitor will lead to Third Impact. The Classified Information Files backs this up:

C. Confidential Information
It is thought that Third Impact will occur if an Angel comes in contact with either Lilith (in Terminal Dogma) or Adam.
D. In-Depth Information
The alleged reality of Third Impact is that humans will lose their personal boundaries, dissolving as a result. Life will arrive at its terminus (although it is unclear what such an end entails), and A.T. Fields will be lost, rendering the preservation of human form impossible.


Now, I don't know how Angels would prevent Lilith-based life from beginning again after said impact, it's unclear if Lilith would survive. If we assume Lilith would, then it's possible that Angels would be able to easily destroy any Lilith-based life that arises out of sheer physical superiority to them. The only reason there is any contest during the time NGE takes place is because humans have become intelligent enough to clone Adam (and in one case, Lilith) and use technology to control said clones and put up a fight. It may even be that if a form of life containing the opposite fruit of the the Progenitor it makes contact with, the Progenitor will wind up going out of control and destroying itself. The only reason Adam wasn't obliterated entirely was because they used the Lance on it again, IIRC. Or I should say, that could have been the case, it's likely not knowable if it would've been or not. Now, Adam's self-explosion was a result of human DNA plunging into its own and fusing with it, causing the S2 engine to go into overdrive. I don't know how such an event would occur with Lilith since Lilith has no S2 engine, but maybe somehow the fruit of knowledge could similarly go haywire and cause Lilith to become obliterated. Really though, such an event would be difficult to fathom, because we see no evidence of there being a physical fruit of knowledge, and don't really know what the FoK really is. Especially considering the Angels are capable of intelligence and communication.

Really, there is too much unknown to make a solid statement about what all would happen and how, but we do know that contact made between an Angel and a Progenitor Angel will result in third impact and destroy all life that currently exists, and that Adam-based lifeforms have a physical advantage over Lilith-based lifeforms, and so even if both Adam and Lilith survived the impact, Adam's spawn would still be the most likely to inherit the Earth.

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Re: Were all the Angels headed the wrong way?

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Postby Director Black » Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:14 pm

View Original PostCommanderFish wrote:I wouldn't necessarily say the first-arc angels aren't smart, but I guess I would have to hear your reasoning on that.


Sachiel, for the most part, is an angel that relies on basic instinct, going as far to kill itself when it's about to lose.

Shamshel is a bit smarter hiding out in the smoke when Shinji fired his gun too many times, but like Sachiel, it also relies on basic instinct. Not to mention that it arguably goes down quicker then Sachiel.

Ramiel however, is a whole different beast. It knows what attacks are approaching and was the first angel that tried to destroy Nerv HQ.
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Re: Were all the Angels headed the wrong way?

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Postby CommanderFish » Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:40 am

StrokeMeGoat wrote:Actually, I believe Kaworu knew Lilith was Lilith from the start, no confusion. He was putting on a show for Rei, it seems like. It makes very little sense based on what I already lined out in my other post to suggest he could become confused about who was who. It's possible he was, but I really doubt it was the case.

Yeah, I guess this would be a third option. And while I've definitely heard it before, I can't really think of any solid reasoning to support it. Honestly, I'm guessing this is one of those things that will just always remain a mystery (but luckily that's not so uncommon in the world of Eva ;) ).

I'm not sure exactly how all it would work, but it's not fair to say that only Lilin AT Fields were dissolved in Antarctica, there weren't any Angels around, so we have no idea how it would have affected them.

Yeah, that's fair. I didn't really think that through too well...

Now, I don't know how Angels would prevent Lilith-based life from beginning again after said impact, it's unclear if Lilith would survive. If we assume Lilith would, then it's possible that Angels would be able to easily destroy any Lilith-based life that arises out of sheer physical superiority to them. The only reason there is any contest during the time NGE takes place is because humans have become intelligent enough to clone Adam (and in one case, Lilith) and use technology to control said clones and put up a fight.

Now this is something that I've never thought about before. Great observation. Your conclusion actually helps me make sense as to why the Angels would go after Lilith now (regardless of whether or not Lilith would actually die in the process).

At the end of the day, I think the whole Angel vs. Lilin deal is really just two species fighting for survival. Quite the great choice of plot for or a series analyzing the fundamentals of the human element, I would say.
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Re: Were all the Angels headed the wrong way?

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Postby Reichu » Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:51 am

View Original PostStrokeMeGoat wrote:Now, I don't know how Angels would prevent Lilith-based life from beginning again after said impact,

They wouldn't have to. An Angel-caused impact is shown in the game (translation is in the "alternate scenarios" stickied thread). In it, GNR collects everyone's souls, and it's strongly implied that Lilin are being remade into Angels. In other words, Earth's ecosystem is being "reset" to what it was supposed to be in the first place. All "false successors" are reborn as "true successors" and the conflict ends forever.
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Re: Were all the Angels headed the wrong way?

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:38 pm

I accidentally posted this in the wrong thread, but wanted to make a comment on Kaworu's behavior when he encountered Lilith: Rewatching the scene, I've changed my mind somewhat about his exclamation of the giant in front of him being Lilith. The entire trip toward Terminal Dogma, he is confused by the fact that Humans make use of Adam to combat the angels. He specifically states he does not understand.

He spent his time with Shinji and realized all humans were doomed to live flawed existences where they either hurt each other out of fear or suffered isolation and loneliness for fear of that pain. He was planning on mercy killing them, which I think is more of the point of him doing exactly that to the cat in the manga (although he's significantly more of a psychopath in the manga and the manga canon isn't the same as TV canon; I just think it explores things a different way and can be used to understand the rest of the series in a different way). He knew the cat was going to starve and die; basically, its life was pain, and so he chose to end its pain by ending its existence altogether. Hope for man, similarly, was written in sorrow. Essentially, their only hope to escape the pain of living was to die.

When he realizes after a moment that who is before him isn't Adam, I think he realizes that Unit-01 is an offspring of Lilith, as opposed to a clone of Adam as well. At that point, he figures out their plans and understands there is actual hope for the humans to live on as a perfect life form, or at least have a choice when it comes to matters of the future. It may be why he decided to go ahead and let Shinji end his life and any potential life for Adam's offspring. It didn't matter to him whether he existed or not, but because they had hope for never feeling the pain of a flawed existence again, he gave them the option to keep on living. He realized true freedom was for one to control one's fate, and rather than kill them (not giving them the option to find a way to make things work or get better, because he believed the only hope for humanity to escape its pain was to die), denying them what he deems true freedom, he sees that there is hope after all. I think in a way, the fact that they were made imperfect but found a way to overcome said imperfections made them more worthy of life than being born a perfect being (in Kaworu's eyes), where there are no goals for one's existence or than to simply exist.

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Re: Were all the Angels headed the wrong way?

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Postby Director Black » Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:37 pm

View Original PostStrokeMeGoat wrote:When he realizes after a moment that who is before him isn't Adam, I think he realizes that Unit-01 is an offspring of Lilith, as opposed to a clone of Adam as well. At that point, he figures out their plans and understands there is actual hope for the humans to live on as a perfect life form, or at least have a choice when it comes to matters of the future.


Kaworu's best aspect as a character (IMO) is the overall feelings he shows. The angels are lost on what to do. The three angels who communicate with the Eva Pilot's minds (Leliel, Arael, and Armisael) express this best in their desire to understand the minds of humans. Thinking about it more, the angels get smarter with each passing one, and with Kaworu, he achieves what the other angels were incapable of: communication. It makes even more sense seeing as how the reason he's part-human is that someone on the Katsuragi expedition fused with Adam. He died knowing that he did both his kinds a favor, a sacrifice for both the Angels and the Lilim.
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Re: Were all the Angels headed the wrong way?

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Postby TheCarkolum » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:41 pm

Angels are full of crap. It's difficult to say if they were headed the wrong way, because It's not even clear what their way is. Probably even they don't know. Merging with Adam? Merging with Lilith? Both? Or none? Maybe they act instinctively. Their primal goal is being with somebody, maybe they don't care if it's Adam or Lilith or another angel. They seem to sense their peers, and have the impulse to be with them. Most of them know that there's something beneath the ground they're aiming for, that's because they throw their cross-shaped beams towards Tokyo-III. They want to make way to that thing. That's why Gaghiel attacked the ship with Adam. He sensed Adam, but not because he was looking preciselly for Adam, but because he sensed "something". I think it's pointless asking if Zeruel was searching for Adam or Lilith. There's neither right nor wrong nor a precise way to proceed.
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