One recurring complaint about EVA I've heard a lot.

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Re: One recurring complaint about EVA I've heard a lot.

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Postby Kendrix » Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:00 am

View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote: to the point that 3 teenagers seem to be morally more important than the rest of mankind


I get what they mean, I simply don't see how that is or how the show treats it that way so it seems like it's a complaint that the kids' issues play a role at all, franlly you can't really dissect human nature from large scale logistics and it's not that much of a "two sides" issue as most of what would wipe out "the world" would also kill our protagonists it's not really a juxtaposition as much as a situation that's sorta bleak and hopeless in both the macro and microcosm level.
Our protagonist's aren't really "separate" from the mass of the people - they're examples for people who might get wiped out & have to fight against it.
You could also show the story from the perspective of some random NERV employee or somene who just contributes tax money as far as that is concerned but let's not kid ourselves they'll point the camera where the action is.
- indeed the certainty that Misato & the others have that the kids very much aren't morally more important is essential to the drama & themes of the show at least as I perceive it: Ritsuko's polite enough but is ultimately detached from the "human ressources"; Fuyu sorta halfassedly voices ethical quals but is essentially the same, Misato is all conflicted both because of her personality & just because she works more closely with the kids, and Gendo who's more "morally flexible" to begin with is in this weird halfway space where he sees no contradiction between making Shinji & Rei fight for their lives one day and interacting with them normally (or as close to that as he gets but that's a different issue) the next day & probably thinks the utopia of instrumentality will make up for everything.

A smaller wrong may be justified but that doesn't make it a good, the cost isn't nothing and it's gonna be hard for someone like Misato to go through with it - Not taking that nto account would simply be unrealistic. You can't just ignore the human factor simply because it would make sense - what more, a scenario where you expect it not to come in to play is what wouldn't make sense. It may be justified but it's still not right, there just isn't a good choice & that's the story.

& the whole thing really should be analyzed on the level of the adults (Misato & co) & how they act because the kid's don't really understand the big picture (except maybe Rei but she's indoctrinated into Gendo's view of things at first), nor would it be surprising for them not to have that maturity at their age. - that's part of the complication.

I mean to some extent you end up pursuing this to the fundamentals of how morality works & the different opinions peole have of it & the reality is that neither the fully utilitarian nor the fully kantian view should just be swallowed without caveats b/c the world throws complex situations at us.
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Re: One recurring complaint about EVA I've heard a lot.

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Postby xanderkh » Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:18 pm

I think that complaint towards Evangelion delving "too deep" of the characters issues instead of focusing on the efforts of saving the world is actually the crux of the whole series itself, and thus pointing out the deconstruction aspect of the Super Robot Genre, who have heroes that have tragic pasts, but magically somehow manage to overcome such issues to "gung-ho" in to save the day, which unfortunately is fun to watch, but also highly unrealistic.

Depression due to parental neglect and a crippling-lack of self-worth aren't issues that can simply be "cured" overnight or with a few choice words. It takes time, effort, and a lot of mental restructuring to work out, especially with Shinji's case.

Think of it this way with this hypothetical exchange:

Misato: "You're the only one who can pilot Eva! You have to save the word!"

Shinji: "Why?"

Shinji is a character who's crippling self-esteem issues almost deny him a reason to continue going on, but he doesn't have the conviction to commit suicide, so when he's pretty much drafted into the Evangelion war, of course the series is going to focus on his issues of struggling to save the world, while also him trying to find a reason to even bother saving a world that's pretty much up only given him misery and pain. It highlights the tragedy, and the horror that this world has created by sending such a damaged child off into battle for the sake of a world that only has a "use" for him instead people wanting to be with him.
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Re: One recurring complaint about EVA I've heard a lot.

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Postby TheCarkolum » Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:51 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote: you can't really dissect human nature from large scale logistics and it's not that much of a "two sides" issue as most of what would wipe out "the world" would also kill our protagonists it's not really a juxtaposition as much as a situation that's sorta bleak and hopeless in both the macro and microcosm level.
Our protagonist's aren't really "separate" from the mass of the people - they're examples for people who might get wiped out & have to fight against it.

It would be not juxtaposition if the mankind issues were merely a extension of the character issues, and that's clearly not the case. Apart from survival, the characters deal with social inability, identity crises, father issues, etc. You know, things that only relate contextually with the global disaster and don't depend directly on it. And I think that's where the complaint comes from.
View Original PostKendrix wrote: You could also show the story from the perspective of some random NERV employee or somene who just contributes tax money as far as that is concerned but let's not kid ourselves they'll point the camera where the action is.

It's not a matter of character perspectives. Of course that the show relies on the three teenagers, because they are who move the plot forward. Nobody can argue that. I'm gonna put it this way: the complaint is basically: "overbloated existentialism in comparison to the moral-utilitarian factor driven by the apocalyptic world scenario".
I simply don't see how that is or how the show treats it that way

Well, an example. Remember episode 23, when (almost)the whole city dissapears? Again, many people are suffering because of the Angels, yet we never see the citizens suffering or asking for help or anything. Instead, Shinji in the episode 24 says that Suzuhara and the other are leaving because they got no home. You see? Instead of focusing on the homeless people, the series focuses on the helplessness of Shinji and how friendless is now.
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Re: One recurring complaint about EVA I've heard a lot.

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Postby Tumbling Down » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:04 am

People don't suddenly stop caring about their own peoblems because other people have much bigger problems. This applies to both Shinji and the audience.

I can't quote on my phone, but someone brought up Episode 24 earlier. By that point in the series, we've spent enough time with Shinji that his problems are our problems. It's easier to empathize with someone we've been following for a whole season than some unnamed extras whose homes were destroyed off-screen. I'd also argue that the feelings of isolation and heartbreak are what audiences are responding to, not the specific circumstances leading to them. Therefore, it doesn't matter whether we focus on the people forced to leave their homes or the person forced to stay behind. Plus, Evangelion is a show about the perils of human interactions, and EoE specifically brings up the idea that the breaking apart of a relationship is inevitable. You can't really talk about that when the focus of your story is people who have suffered beyond the scope of interpersonal relations.

It's still for the best that the show is a mecha, because the kind of people who need to hear this stuff are the kind of people watching mecha. And fantastical, allegorical scenarios make it easier for me (and I assume many others) to project myself onto the protagonist than specific realistic ones do.


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