The battle against the MPE's disappointed me a bit in the EoE

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The battle against the MPE's disappointed me a bit in the EoE

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Postby The Flying Fortress » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:47 pm

We have the logical answers ready for this, but I want to argue that this moment does not follow the usual battle style that the anime followed.

Let's recap, remember some time when the EVA kicked the Angels' ass just as easily as Asuka did against the MPE's?

In general, to defeat the Angels, it was necessary to build strategies and move a large contingent of Nerv's command staff and tower. We can see the human effort to defeat a single Angel even in the possession of three giant cyborgs.

Even though they are now MPE's and not angels, should they theoretically not be stronger? They are copies of Eva with S2 engine.

But then, we have this scene where Asuka defeats all MPE's easily, I really bother with it, yes, I know it's a movie and they need to do things in a hurry, but why does EVA-02 defeat them that way? It seems to me that they tried to do a private show of a character here and ignored the potential of combat that the MPE could have.

Also, you can not find animation of this strange scene? , Like EVA-02 flying (Dufuq?) And also when she grabs one of the MPE's by the neck seems to be a bar fight.

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Re: The battle against the MPE's disappointed me a bit in the EoE

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Postby Cybermat47 » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:47 pm

But Asuka really didn't defeat the Evas that easily. She didn't defeat them at all. None of the damage she did actually mattered in the end.
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Re: The battle against the MPE's disappointed me a bit in the EoE

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Postby pwhodges » Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:40 am

View Original PostThe Flying Fortress wrote:Even though they are now MPE's and not angels, should they theoretically not be stronger? They are copies of Eva with S2 engine.

Which is why they won - they could recover from injuries and keep going whereas Unit-02 couldn't.

But then, we have this scene where Asuka defeats all MPE's easily, I really bother with it, yes, I know it's a movie and they need to do things in a hurry, but why does EVA-02 defeat them that way?

Because Asuka has gone berserk, which even in real life sometimes gives a kind of power-up. However it does her no good in the end.

It seems to me that they tried to do a private show of a character here and ignored the potential of combat that the MPE could have.

Simply, Evangelion is not a story about the MPEs - it's a story about Asuka and Shinji.
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Re: The battle against the MPE's disappointed me a bit in the EoE

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Postby The Flying Fortress » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:47 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Which is why they won - they could recover from injuries and keep going whereas Unit-02 couldn't.

I know MPE's are not defeated, but I referred to their totally zombie battle mode against EVA-02, totally uninteresting compared to the battles against the Angels. They could play something better since they are EVA's too, nor do we even know what technology controls it, Dummy Plug certainly is not.


Because Asuka has gone berserk, which even in real life sometimes gives a kind of power-up. However it does her no good in the end.

This does not justify immobilizing 7 EVA's so easily, to me it's weird just.


Simply, Evangelion is not a story about the MPEs - it's a story about Asuka and Shinji.


This is interpretive, for me can tell a lot of stories even focusing on one point, what I'm referring to here is that Evangelion is not the kind of anime in which the '' hero '' kicks the ass of the '' villains '' and makes his Personal spectacle as any Shounen.

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Re: The battle against the MPE's disappointed me a bit in the EoE

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Postby silvermoonlight » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:20 am

View Original PostCybermat47 wrote:But Asuka really didn't defeat the Evas that easily. She didn't defeat them at all. None of the damage she did actually mattered in the end.


I get why this was done in EOE but I never liked this plot point because its shown in the series that 01 could rip out an angels S2 engine and eat it and the S2 engine looks like a liver and when he does the angel dies. Asuka cuts one mass eva unit in half and another three she puts her fist through mangling there guts up so in my view those four should not have gotten up again period. Please note I'm not saying Asuka should have won this fight but I think those four mass eva units staying dead would have made more sense.
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Re: The battle against the MPE's disappointed me a bit in the EoE

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:17 am

silvermoonlight: None of their cores were destroyed, so none of them were actually dead. Being piloted by dummy plugs instead of people, the harpies were freed from any considerations of pain.

But speaking of that, I do find it absolutely inane that they bother attacking in the first place, only to get trashed, play possum, and then, only once Eva-02's energy is out, get nasty. One's confronted with any number of weird questions about the sequence.

(A) If they were always that nasty, why did they wait until after they'd been mutilated to show it?

(B) On a similar note, they show exceptional coordinating ability from the point that Eva-02 is down and onward. If that ability to coordinate their efforts to perfection was always there, why the fuck wait?

(C) If, for whatever reason, the harpies' ability to coordinate doesn't work against a moving target, then why didn't Seele just wait until Eva-02's power out to deploy them?

(D) Scratch that -- why didn't Seele just wait until Eva-02 was down to deploy the MPs, period? Seriously, what was Eva-02 going to do to affect their plans before her battery ran out? Nothing, pretty much. On the other hand, if they throw their Instrumentality Task Force directly at her, they introduce the possibility that she might wreck them and their plans.

I could go on and on. There are so many aspects of the encounter that are just absolutely nonsensical and I DON'T CARE HOW MUCH PEOPLE LIKE IT, IT BUGS ME.
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Re: The battle against the MPE's disappointed me a bit in the EoE

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Postby silvermoonlight » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:45 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:silvermoonlight: None of their cores were destroyed, so none of them were actually dead. Being piloted by dummy plugs instead of people, the harpies were freed from any considerations of pain.


Good point I had not considered that but then that begs the other question why not smash up there cores? She knows where the core is she proberbly saw it on 01 when it was being repaired and Shinji was sucked in to the core.

(D) Scratch that -- why didn't Seele just wait until Eva-02 was down to deploy the MPs, period? Seriously, what was Eva-02 going to do to affect their plans before her battery ran out? Nothing, pretty much. On the other hand, if they throw their Instrumentality Task Force directly at her, they introduce the possibility that she might wreck them and their plans.


Also add to this why didn't Asuka eat one of their S2 engines? She saw Shinji do it so she could have gotten rid of the timer permanently all she had to do was tear off 02's mouth restraints and maul the nearest mass eva unit.
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Re: The battle against the MPE's disappointed me a bit in the EoE

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Postby jcmoorehead » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:01 am

View Original Postsilvermoonlight wrote:Good point I had not considered that but then that begs the other question why not smash up there cores? She knows where the core is she proberbly saw it on 01 when it was being repaired and Shinji was sucked in to the core.


I always kind of figured that it was just something she didn't think of doing. She probably wasn't fully aware of the capabilities of the Eva series at the time and no one took the time to inform her of that particular ability (If they themselves knew) so with the limited time she had she just tried to do as much damage as she could and thought that'd be enough.

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Re: The battle against the MPE's disappointed me a bit in the EoE

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:03 am

View Original Postsilvermoonlight wrote:Good point I had not considered that but then that begs the other question why not smash up there cores?

Time before power ran out.

Also add to this why didn't Asuka eat one of their S2 engines? She saw Shinji do it so she could have gotten rid of the timer permanently all she had to do was tear off 02's mouth restraints and maul the nearest mass eva unit.

Time again; she'd not have had the chance to stop for a snack while there were others still active to stop her.
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Re: The battle against the MPE's disappointed me a bit in the EoE

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:10 am

View Original Postsilvermoonlight wrote:why not smash up there cores?

Remember how long it took before Shamshel died, even with a progressive knife straight in the core? Those things are built to last. The Soryus didn't have that kind of time. That said, on the last unit that's targeted, Asuka is trying to crush the core or rip it out or something.

Also add to this why didn't Asuka eat one of their S2 engines? She saw Shinji do it

Asuka was probably in the hospital for nervous system shock when that happened. She definitely wasn't present -- you might be thinking of episode 16. (Kyoko doesn't have that excuse, though...)
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Re: The battle against the MPE's disappointed me a bit in the EoE

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Postby CommanderFish » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:25 pm

Reichu wrote:why didn't Seele just wait until Eva-02 was down to deploy the MPs, period? Seriously, what was Eva-02 going to do to affect their plans before her battery ran out? Nothing, pretty much. On the other hand, if they throw their Instrumentality Task Force directly at her, they introduce the possibility that she might wreck them and their plans.

I always assumed that SEELE just didn't want to risk Eva-02 getting away, hiding and recharging then coming back later and messing up their Instrumentality proceedings. They wanted to deal with it while they had the chance, removing one more factor that could potentially disrupt their plans. And I'd imagine SEELE was quite confident that their nine, S2-engined, replica-lance-of-longinus-wielding Eva units could together deal with a lone Eva-02.

Reichu wrote:they show exceptional coordinating ability from the point that Eva-02 is down and onward. If that ability to coordinate their efforts to perfection was always there, why the fuck wait?

I think this makes a lot more sense if you look at the MPE's as being like vultures. After Asuka had been impaled and immobilized they all went flying towards her, grouping up around her in an almost instinctual fashion and ripping up her guts. It's almost like the whole time they were waiting for her to be in a state where she could not fight back, just doing the bare minimum to defend themselves in the meantime; much in the same way that vultures would target a dead animal rather than a live one. And it should be noted that when Asuka finally did start attacking the core of one, a lance was promptly thrown her way--almost as if another MPE unit recognized the legitimate mortal danger of one of their comrades and saw that as incentive enough to actually try instead of just doing nothing.
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Re: The battle against the MPE's disappointed me a bit in the EoE

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:55 pm

View Original PostCommanderFish wrote:I think this makes a lot more sense if you look at the MPE's as being like vultures.

Vultures don't throw themselves at prey that's still quite alive and kicking -- they wait until it's safe to come in and feast. For the comparison to hold water in a more than purely superficial sense, the Eva Series would have needed to remain circling at the beginning until Eva-02 was immobile.

And it should be noted that when Asuka finally did start attacking the core of one, a lance was promptly thrown her way--almost as if another MPE unit recognized the legitimate mortal danger of one of their comrades and saw that as incentive enough to actually try instead of just doing nothing.

Maya had been keeping track of the enemy Evas' activity, and she doesn't say anything about the "fallen Eva Series" reactivating until after Eva-02 gpes down. That rules out one of MPs throwing the Spear, meaning it probably threw itself -- foreshadowing the autonomous return of the original Spear later on.
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Re: The battle against the MPE's disappointed me a bit in the EoE

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Postby CommanderFish » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:12 am

Reichu wrote:Vultures don't throw themselves at prey that's still quite alive and kicking -- they wait until it's safe to come in and feast. For the comparison to hold water in a more than purely superficial sense, the Eva Series would have needed to remain circling at the beginning until Eva-02 was immobile.

Well, then I suppose the comparison is superficial. I did only say they are like vultures, though. :tongue:

Reichu wrote:Maya had been keeping track of the enemy Evas' activity, and she doesn't say anything about the "fallen Eva Series" reactivating until after Eva-02 goes down. That rules out one of MPs throwing the Spear, meaning it probably threw itself -- foreshadowing the autonomous return of the original Spear later on.

Huh. I had always just assumed that it was another MP-Eva, but this actually makes a lot of sense in its own right. Thanks for the correction.

But if this is the case, then you sorta just addressed your own concern, I would think:
Reichu wrote:if they throw their Instrumentality Task Force directly at her, they introduce the possibility that she might wreck them and their plans.

Assuming that the replica-lance activating on its own is a built-in fail-safe that responds to the MPE's core(s) being damaged, the possibility of Asuka managing to defeat them would be basically non-existent. (Maybe that's a bigger assumption than I think it is, though).
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Re: The battle against the MPE's disappointed me a bit in the EoE

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:57 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Maya had been keeping track of the enemy Evas' activity, and she doesn't say anything about the "fallen Eva Series" reactivating until after Eva-02 gpes down. That rules out one of MPs throwing the Spear, meaning it probably threw itself -- foreshadowing the autonomous return of the original Spear later on.

She's not necessarily a perfect observer, though, so that conclusion is not certain.
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Re: The battle against the MPE's disappointed me a bit in the EoE

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Postby Reichu » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:29 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:She's not necessarily a perfect observer, though, so that conclusion is not certain.

They have sensors that can detect S2 organ activity. She doesn't need to be a "perfect observer".
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