classified-zerogoki wrote:I never got disturbed when I saw Eva. Ever. Though I did get shocked by the plot twists the first time.

That's disturbing.

^
The irony.

classified-zerogoki wrote:I never got disturbed when I saw Eva. Ever. Though I did get shocked by the plot twists the first time.

What plot twist exactly?

^
I got shocked by the "Evas-being-clones-of-Adam twist", despite the blatant symbolism, and the fact that "humans=18th angel" twist, but I was shocked because those twists solved the mysteries at the beginning. Part of the reason I never got disturbed is because I am interested in dark stories.

Just burned through Eva's heavy artillery - Episodes 20 through 23 - with a friend I've been introducing the series to. I've seen those episodes probably four times by now, but ripping through them in quick succession still leaves my morals feeling queasy.

Probably the most disturbing part was Ritsuko's devastated sobs at the end of 23'. There is just something deeply uncomfortable about public grief.

As for my friend's reactions:

Halfway through episode 20: "Holy f*ck I would not want to watch this high!"

Episode 21: Shocked and confused noises.

Episode 22: Silence.

Episode 23: Silence. Then, "Wow." Then silence again. Then, "I love how in these three episodes everyone just completely loses their shit."

well definetely im not impacted by gore ....so most of the scenes you guys metioned do no affect me.

but some other mindfucked really bad.,like Kaji,s Dead its pretty disturbing to me...i found myself like WTF!!!

The good thing about NGE is that sometimes is dark and horrifying in a subtle way, or even in a subliminal way. My moments:

- Rei corpse in the episode 23. WOW.

- Shinji choking Asuka for the first time.

- Asuka's mindrape.

-Rei deformed faces.

In the original continuity:

- The masturbation scene. It shows how Shinji's just completely lost his mind - or, more disturbing to consider, was he always like that?

- Third Impact. Need I say more?

I've probably forgotten some stuff. I'm about halfway through rewatching NGE right now, so... yay. Here comes child murder, suicide, and crippling depression.

In Rebuild:

- Unit-01 crushing Asuka's entry plug. It's simply brutal, and Shinji's reaction makes it even worse. How did Asuka even survive that?

- The 10th Angel devouring Unit-00 and Rei. It might be because it's so long since I fully watched NGE, but I found rebuild Rei to be a lot more compelling than NGE Rei-II, and I especially liked the beginnings of a romance she had with Shinji. To see her apparently die so suddenly was... damn.

- Shinji's treatment aboard the Wunder. We're put in Shinji's shoes, and everything familiar and friendly is now different and hostile.

"How did Asuka survive that?"

She's no longer a Lilin when it happens.

You make that sound clear-cut. All we know is that she survived, and that her eyepatch has angel-containment runes on it - but that could be for no more than her eye (startling enough, I know, but that doesn't make her "no longer a Lilin").

Ritsuko establishes over and over in 2.22 that excessive plug depth turns the pilots into something else. The "curse of Eva", which Asuka has, is strongly implied to be the result of this. Asuka refers to humans as "Lilin" at the end of 3.33, which only makes sense if she isn't one. Would be far more surprising if a forever-young, super-strong Asuka who needs to put Angel-sealing runes over her eye was somehow still a perfectly normal Lilin.

Sure - not perfectly normal, far from it - but still able to function normally in Lilin society, by all appearances far better than Kaworu does.

But I'd forgotten the remark where she refers to others as Lilin, I will admit; however, I can take the cracking of the glass as extreme use of human strength. We don't know if Asuka (or Mari) ever experienced "excessive" plug depth, and the curse isn't overtly linked with that, only with "Eva". If it's plug depth (and length of full absorption time?), then Shinji is the one we should be worrying about - of course, they did put the collar (with runes) on him, but they also said they'd decided he was genuine Shinji.

Asuka and Mari most certainly did. Ritsuko's panicked gobbledygook lays it all out. You even see Asuka get pushed deeper into the plug.

Being able to function as a Lilin doesn't mean she still is one.

It feels like you have an issue with NTE's implied transhuman concepts and are fighting against what the films are saying despite them not saying it all that subtly. Let your preconceptions gooooooooooo.

I think you're over-playing it. In spite of the fantastical settings, Eva is a story about humans with human problems, and it falls apart if that connection is broken or strained too far. In the earlier continuities, even through the fantastic events of third impact and instrumentality the characters remain human to the core (ha!), and I don't expect that to change in this telling.

Asuka is an Angel? I'd never considered that.

But surely, Angel or not, she would have been killed when Unit-01 crushed the entry plug?

Pwhodges, do you forget that even back in NGE, "human" was much more inclusive than "Lilin"? I'm not overplaying a thing. This stuff had always been there.

Honestly surprised you waited this many years to react to the idea that Asuka's no longer traditionally human. It's been around quite a while and this is probably the first time I've seen someone try to contest it.

Cybermat: Asuka wasn't in the middle of the plug, where 01's bite was focused, but toward one of the ends.

Reichu wrote:Pwhodges, do you forget that even back in NGE, "human" was much more inclusive than "Lilin"? I'm not overplaying a thing. This stuff had always been there.

But in NGE, that is used not to modify our view of people but to draw the angels closer to us as an alternate offshoot of the FAR.

Honestly surprised you waited this many years to react to the idea that Asuka's no longer traditionally human. It's been around quite a while and this is probably the first time I've seen someone try to contest it.

Let's try this another way: the angels and the lilin are different manifestations of humanity, each lacking something the other has - Asuka may have gained something of an angel (though I think it's most often described as being infected by it), but I see no sign that she has in the process lost anything of what makes her lilin - so her story will continue to be a (real-world) human one. Remember, Asuka is perfectly willing to wear the patch that restrains whatever angelic aspect has affected her eye - which suggests that she herself doesn't view it as a desirable "super-human" quality; and indeed in talking to Shinji she makes it plain that she sees it as damage which she is angry about. Also, Mari shows no angelic qualities as a result of the curse of Eva, only the lack of physical ageing - which demonstrates that the effects on Asuka from the ninth-angel ("Bardiel") incident are separate from the curse.

Finally, Shinji. He may be an "impact trigger", and we've seen his eyes glowing red - but to me these are not signs that he is is some way an angel, but rather they show us that the story is veering into its metaphysical realms, while he himself retains the human - lilin - qualities that in the end the story is about.

Reichu wrote:Cybermat: Asuka wasn't in the middle of the plug, where 01's bite was focused, but toward one of the ends.

Ah, so "plug depth" refers to the pilot's actual physical position, rather than how deep their mind is linked with the Eva's.

It's rather odd that they would design the entry plug to have an extremely dangerous depth, but I guess that when the apocalypse is looming, you can't take the time to perfect things.

Also, I assume that the blood we see from 01's bite was the Angel's?

Cybermat47 wrote:Ah, so "plug depth" refers to the pilot's actual physical position, rather than how deep their mind is linked with the Eva's.

I've always taken it that plug depth is related to synchronisation rate. The effects of excessive synch rate in the series (Shinji reaches 400% when he is absorbed into the Eva) are similar to excessive plug depth in Ha (Shinji gets absorbed at the end of the film). I believe that what we know is not sufficient to make a clear distinction, and I suspect that the wiki articles are a bit more prescriptive than is wise in this case: synchronisation; plug depth.

pwhodges, you keep saying that Asuka cannot be an "Angel", despite

1. Me never actually saying that.
2. Lilin turning out to be Angels All Along in NGE, thereby nullifying any objections you're making on the grounds of that word anyway.

I feel the only reasonable conclusion to arrive upon (when every last hint intentionally placed in the films isn't rationalized away) is that Asuka is something NO LONGER LILIN. I used the word "transhuman". The movies haven't pulled out an exact term yet, but whenever they do you're going to have to live with it, so might as well get your body ready in advance.

Super-human qualities have never, in any way whatsoever, prevented audiences from relating to characters -- demigods, for instance, have been absurdly popular for millennia -- so it seems a whole lot of ado about absolutely nothing. You're claiming there's a problem where none exists.