Anyone else really dislike the live action sequence in EoE?

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Postby Dr. Nick » Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:43 am

Fun fact: the use of live-action footage isn't even an absurdly rare gimmick in (mecha) anime. Combattler V uses it for a comedic effect. Ideon: Be Invoked might be the first anime movie to seriously use it in an artsy fashion. Even Gaogaigar, which is pretty much the polar opposite of NGE in almost every way imaginable, has a very brief bit of artsy live-action. And then there's the ending credit sequence of the original Macross, which may have actually influenced the former.

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Postby MJHx » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:30 am

Thanks to all of the Evageeks who provided some more detailed insights into the scene. I'll be sure to keep them in mind next time I watch EoE and see if they help change my mind about it...

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Postby NemZ » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:38 am

:buster_sword: @Jimbo:

SPOILER: Show
View Original PostEva Yojimbo wrote:When people critique characters or plots, they reason from the points of the characters or the circumstance, but rarely take the view that it is a static, created work of art with an intention behind it that is independent from the work itself.


Yes, because I expect characters in a story to make some semblance of sense as if they were actual people in a situation. I recognize there are multiple layers but analyze each on it's own terms, not allowing one to be an excuse for the other.

Fiction that is self-contained and maintains its illusion rarely provokes us to think about the act of its creation and the implications behind that thought.


Yeah, mostly because I don't care what was actually intended or the process involved, but rather what it means to me. Death of the author, etc.

The series is constantly suggesting that even though such discrete poles exist, we are usually in a state of flux and uncertainty between them.


No, not in this case. Dreams and reality are presented as a mobius strip and thus the justification for instrumentality being a bad thing fails to register.

Instrumentality/fiction/anime is an escape, but it can just as easily become an alternate reality that's real to those within it. It's at once separate from, but still connected to a larger, more objective reality.


Only to the seriously disturbed.

You look at that as meaning the decision was stupid, but I look at it as meaning its realistic; if you choose life, you have to be willing to accept the pain and hardships that come with it, and to present an ending without embodying those things would be worse than disingenuous.


If instrumentality can be as real as reality there is no need to reject it. The stupidity sets in not just because he's chosen a horrific fate over a potentially idyllic one, but also because his stated reasons for making that choice are just as selfish as his reasons for creating this new option in the first place, thus illustrating that he hasn't actually grown as a character but merely calmed down enough from his temper tantrum enough to realize he fucked up.

breaking away from old paradigms is the equivalent of returning to the beginning, which requires eliminating all that's old and established, including all vestiges of society.


What he wanted was to go back to how things were before everything went wrong, to a golden age that never was. That's an impossible, foolish wish anywhere EXCEPT instrumentality, and the ending shows it to be so by forcing him to deal with the consequences of his earlier actions.

I don't see lifelessness in those scenes at all; I see a great deal of peace and beauty.


An empty city and a city full of corporate drones are both symbolic of different forms of isolation; physical and emotional. It's only peaceful in a dystopian sense, and most of it could easily be repurposed as the beginning of a Romero-esque zombie flick or worked into the intro montage of Soylent Green.

YOU must be labeled an audacious failure. ;) Me, and everyone else here with a lick of aesthetic sensibility recognizes its genius.


Calling something an audacious failure doesn't mean it isn't worth watching or that it wasn't a work of great art... just that it ultimately failed to achieve it's high ideals. It's a heartbreaker rather than a triumph.
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Postby Agent_Koopa » Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:38 pm

I disliked the live-action sequence very much, and for reasons much the same as presented in this thread. I felt those scenes (especially the cosplay shot) broke the feeling of continuity just as much as if Anno had presented a black screen with "BTW NONE OF THIS IS HAPPENING". And you know what, sure, maybe that was his intention. But just because something is intentional doesn't mean it's a good move. While I'm being asked to admire his audacity and his genius for deciding to drop the viewer out of the movie, I can't help but feel that the movie suffered as a result of it. The flurry of images and poetic phrases coming out of my screen at me ended up being incomprehensible to me and the average first-time viewer.

NGE, it's pretty clear even to myself, sets itself apart from so many other animes by having a message that isn't "good guys always win" or "justice and love beat all" or even "bad guys win sometimes too". But the live-action sequence and a couple of other bits in EoE tested my faith in NGE's sense of purpose. Instead of inspiring adoration, it gave me a nagging feeling that perhaps Anno didn't know what his movie was about, that if he did he would have been able to communicate it more effectively, and maybe he was just throwing stuff at the viewer's "wall of the heart" to see what stuck, so to speak.

This is where the accusation of "artsiness" comes from. It doesn't come from laziness, it doesn't come from an unwillingness to open oneself up. It comes when the viewer loses faith in the director's sincere wish to communicate an idea. It occurs when the viewer starts to believe that the director is simply being so intentionally audacious, so purposefully obscure and scatterbrained in his imagery, as to avoid close examination of the central theme. When the viewer believes that the purpose of the twists and turns the director puts them through is to buck convention simply for the sake of bucking convention, as opposed to actually trying to mean something. In this way, I think the live-action sequence was a failure, because it continues to divide the fanbase to this day. If it had been more coherent, perhaps less subtle, then there wouldn't be as many people calling him a genius, but then there wouldn't be as many people calling him a pretentious hack, either. And the proof of the pudding is not in how many people you can get to hate it.

If this post was to you a long and disconnected series of impressions instead of a focused attempt to argue a point, I apologise. But perhaps that's appropriate.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:22 pm

View Original PostAgent_Koopa wrote:I felt those scenes (especially the cosplay shot) broke the feeling of continuity just as much as if Anno had presented a black screen with "BTW NONE OF THIS IS HAPPENING".
I would be interested in your reaction to a similar gimmick in the 7th issue of Alan Moore's Promethea.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:20 am

@NemZ  SPOILER: Show
View Original PostNemZ wrote:Yes, because I expect characters in a story to make some semblance of sense as if they were actual people in a situation.
To say they don't do this in NGE is ludicrous, though. Rationalizing others' actions through your POV and saying it's unrealistic is not a substantial argument. People do all kinds of crazy, nonsensical, illogical things when under pressure. But, still, you are not watching humans but someone's approximation of a human that was rendered in a way for a reason. To only focus on characters as if they were real is to miss the proverbial forest for the trees; I'm certainly by no means a "only focus on the forest" guy, but I always stress the importance of balance, and that's something that's frequently lacking around here.

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Yeah, mostly because I don't care what was actually intended or the process involved, but rather what it means to me.
Then you can never possibly hope to understand any art. You can't even begin to say whether art succeeds or fails if you don't understand the intention, or attempt to put forth an argument as to what you feel the intention is.

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Dreams and reality are presented as a mobius strip and thus the justification for instrumentality being a bad thing fails to register.
I disagree. That's like saying that because you're forced to contemplate black and white in a shade of gray that they fail to register; gray is literally the place where black and white (or any color compliments) meet, the same way that Shinji is being forced to recognize the place where dream and reality meet and separate, yet how paradoxically intertwined they are. It's one of the central paradoxes of the series.

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Only to the seriously disturbed.
You try to simplify things to the point of obscuration, NemZ. It's too easy to write off people who live in what we would dub an alternate reality as being disturbed, yet it's undeniable that we all have a view of reality that differs from others as well, so, again, it's not about being disturbed VS not being disturbed, but merely about the level of disturbance. Many would say what we do (and are doing) on here is the equivalent. Our existence on here is a reality, but it is not the reality that most people associate with reality; it is a kind of escape, a fantasy, in that we're dwelling on something that's both not real (the fiction of NGE) and real (NGE as a fictional creation).

Yeah, I just went all metaboard... what?

View Original PostNemZ wrote:If instrumentality can be as real as reality there is no need to reject it. The stupidity sets in not just because he's chosen a horrific fate over a potentially idyllic one, but also because his stated reasons for making that choice are just as selfish as his reasons for creating this new option in the first place, thus illustrating that he hasn't actually grown as a character but merely calmed down enough from his temper tantrum enough to realize he fucked up.
The problem here is that I think you're/we're getting the definition of reality mixed up, perhaps because there's a difference between what most would consider constitutes "normal" reality and "alternate" reality; it's like how they used to say that homosexuals lived an "alternate" lifestyle, even though they were merely describing one life choice that was different than most. It's the same thing here; the reality of Instrumentality would substitute reality as we and Shinji knew it. This new reality, however, would erase our awareness of reality, so, in a sense, reality would cease to exist to us. It's kinda the old tree in the forest rhetorical idea. Instrumentality would be a reality, but that reality would lead to the death of man's awareness of reality.

Again, I don't think what you're saying about Shinji's choice is necessarily wrong; in fact, I happen to agree with what you say from a more distant perspective (which you seem to constantly be viewing NGE from; you're taking a Kubrickean approach to a series that hasn't really dictated that view), but the way that choice looks to you and the way it feels to Shinji (and others) are two very different things. In a sense, what you describe about him being able to calm down enough to the point he can realize he's fucked up perfectly describes how humanity grows, in general. Most of what I know I don't know because I added to what I knew, but because I had to destroy what I thought I knew to be able to rethink things from the beginning; that perfectly describes Shinji's growth. Remember that I've frequently said that NGE is about progression via regression, it's about going back to the beginning so you can start forward again where, before, progress was impossible. The only way to do that is to get to the place where you can realize how you've fucked up, which is precisely what Shinji did.

View Original PostNemZ wrote:What he wanted was to go back to how things were before everything went wrong, to a golden age that never was. That's an impossible, foolish wish anywhere EXCEPT instrumentality
Actually, it's not (impossible), really. People do this all the time where they hold on to past comforts in an substitutional attempt to return to the womb or to happier times. The God concept can be seen to be a substitute for being in the womb or being a child under the watchful eye of a parental figure.

View Original PostNemZ wrote:An empty city and a city full of corporate drones are both symbolic of different forms of isolation; physical and emotional.
Maybe I need to see it again, but I don't remember taking that away from it at all.

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Calling something an audacious failure doesn't mean it isn't worth watching or that it wasn't a work of great art... just that it ultimately failed to achieve it's high ideals.
Yeah, well, TS Eliot said the same thing about Hamlet. I'll take everyone else on the matter who thinks it's a successful masterpiece.
@Agent Koopa  SPOILER: Show
Agent Koopa wrote:But just because something is intentional doesn't mean it's a good move.
I always tend to think that when people take this stance that they're walking a very fine, almost solipsistic, almost egoist, almost god-like line. Criteria for judging art is pretty relative to begin with, but how well an artist achieves what they intended is a pretty major one because it's not fair that we simply filter everything through our own biases and make judgments based on that. When I'm judging art, two of my constant questions are, one, "what was the artist going for?" and, two, "did they achieve it?". Now, these two questions are hard enough to answer on their own (much less present arguments for), but when you say that they don't even matter then it opens up an even bigger can of worms. You essentially set yourself up as god, saying that your opinion is, in a sense, all that matters in such situations.

Agent Koopa wrote:The flurry of images and poetic phrases coming out of my screen at me ended up being incomprehensible to me and the average first-time viewer.
I think a great deal of NGE is incomprehensible for any first-time viewer, but, and I've said this before, that's precisely what gives is the kind of depth and richness that keeps us all here talking about it. So, to me, not understanding something on a first viewing is usually a good sign, rather than a negative one.

Agent Koopa wrote:Instead of inspiring adoration, it gave me a nagging feeling that perhaps Anno didn't know what his movie was about, that if he did he would have been able to communicate it more effectively, and maybe he was just throwing stuff at the viewer's "wall of the heart" to see what stuck, so to speak.
If anything, I feel the opposite. The LAS is one of the few scenes in EoE that I initially latched on to as being directly representative of what Anno was going on about and what it all meant. I think as myself, Xard, Ran, and others have argued in this thread, we seem to feel that it's one of the purest expressions of what Anno felt was important in the series to begin with; I imagine they'd agree that EoTV is quite similar in that respect.

Agent Koopa wrote:This is where the accusation of "artsiness" comes from. It doesn't come from laziness, it doesn't come from an unwillingness to open oneself up. It comes when the viewer loses faith in the director's sincere wish to communicate an idea. It occurs when the viewer starts to believe that the director is simply being so intentionally audacious, so purposefully obscure and scatterbrained in his imagery, as to avoid close examination of the central theme. When the viewer believes that the purpose of the twists and turns the director puts them through is to buck convention simply for the sake of bucking convention, as opposed to actually trying to mean something. In this way, I think the live-action sequence was a failure, because it continues to divide the fanbase to this day. If it had been more coherent, perhaps less subtle, then there wouldn't be as many people calling him a genius, but then there wouldn't be as many people calling him a pretentious hack, either. And the proof of the pudding is not in how many people you can get to hate it.
I think this is all quite eloquently written, but I think the problem is that it more describes a subjective reaction to something more so than what's in the work itself. I think most would agree that art is communication, and, just like regular communication, a link between the interlocutors can be easily lost or distorted or whatever. When that happens I think too many lack the perspective to examine whether the fault is that of the artist or themselves. Usually, when people are approaching great art, the fault lies with themselves. So it's not that I'm trying to invalidate your subjective reaction to the scene, I don't think it's objectively valid. IOW, I don't think that the LAS is Anno, in any way, just throwing stuff at a wall to see what sticks, or trying to be overly obscure in order to avoid his themes or all of the things you accuse it of being. If it really was so incoherent than those who are arguing for its importance would find themselves having great difficulty arguing for what it means, and using evidence within that section to support that. I don't think there's any section within it that I feel doesn't serve a purpose; I mean, the very idea that it returns to the motifs that have been so carefully established in the series show that Anno wasn't just randomly shooting stuff in order to "throw ideas against a wall".
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Re: Anyone else really dislike the live action sequence in EoE?

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Postby TheCarkolum » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:52 pm

I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand I get the idea of escaping from animation to live action to symbolize escaping from reality into dreams. On the other hand, it feels a bit into navel-gazing territory. You are in such an important moment of the movie, and you came from a scene where the frames are passing by ultra fast. Why do you try so hard? Isn't Eva known by its subtlety? Just make the scene more simple, make it animated to give the audience a rest and if you want to give us the sensation of a dream, well, give us some clue, make some relaxing visuals (the music is perfect, Anno got it right in that one!). But the proof Anno was full turbo mode is that, after the live action sequence, some letters with death threats to Anno are shown to us. That is... random as a transition...just chill man.
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Re: Anyone else really dislike the live action sequence in EoE?

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Postby silvermoonlight » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:36 am

It feels out of place to me but not because of what its showing as I get the themes and what its trying to say I just don't like it when animation worlds cross with the real worlds as I don't think it works in a lot of mediums, granted in some its seamless but in EOE its such a really sudden change and there were no clips like it in the series.
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Re: Anyone else really dislike the live action sequence in EoE?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:32 pm

I love the live-action sequence in EoE. Many live-action films switch to animation whenever a character is telling a story or relaying a dream they had. Even other 3-D animated films showcase traditional animation when characters are telling stories or are simply dreaming, like in Disney's Moana. I love the fact that EoE does the reverse, and switches from traditional animation to live-action for the purposes of conveying a dream scene.


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