C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Re: How misunderstood is Asuka?

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Postby Joseki » Wed May 31, 2017 3:44 pm

^

Kaworu and Shinji were in the official artwork released at end of 2011.

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:But from her point of view it would not be hard for her to see him also as having aged to the same extent as her, even though he's gained no experience meantime. Also, she's talking to him as another Eva pilot while piloting, so in that sense they are still potential equals. At the least it's not clear-cut.


If Q Asuka really is a 28 years old in her mind, the same age as Misato was in 2.0, she should be able easily understand Shinji's situation and act accordingly.
An Asuka stuck in her 14 years old body and mind for 14 years, a bit like Anno let's say, probably wouldn't have the tools to do so and consider him rightly as a naive, clueless, childish equal.
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Re: How misunderstood is Asuka?

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Postby Settie » Wed May 31, 2017 5:04 pm

View Original Postrobersora wrote:Additionally, I'm pretty sure it's called the curse of Eva, because it is meant to be some sort of meta commentary about how people never grow out of Eva.
I'm really looking forward to a 3.0 Complete Collection Book, where we will hopefully find answers what the exact thought process was behind this factor.


I'm not familiar with all aspects of the eva fan community but why would that be an issue? For example I've been a Godzilla fan since i was a kid, damn near watched every movie and intend to continue doing so, so why is not growing up out of a franchise fandom a negative? Or is it something that's specific about eva??


To OP, it depends on which Asuka we're discussing. Soryu for sure tends to be misunderstood. It's easy to watch the series and see this character come in and think "what a bitch" and never bother to invest in that character after that initial negative impression. Causing folks to miss the depth that is explored near the end of the series which goes a long way to explain why Asuka behaves the way she does. A casual viewing will often miss out on all the little details that i would say is necessary to understand Asuka (all the characters really) and all the pros and cons.

Shikinami though, that's a different. She's a bit of a dick in 3.0, especially towards Shinji, and we're never really told why. Is it the curse of eva or something else, something more personal? So for now i would say that Shikinami isn't as misunderstood as Soryu, but her story isn't finished so it's too early to say if she really is just a bitchy character or if there's more there. It will be the last movie that will seal the deal when it comes to Shikinami.

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Re: How misunderstood is Asuka?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed May 31, 2017 5:07 pm

View Original Postrobersora wrote:Can't remember seeing Kaworu beforehand, though he would be an exception from the Curse of Eva anyways, since he's some kine of Angel in NTE.
Actually, I was mistaken too. Looking at the relevant thread -- https://forum.evageeks.org/post/567880/ ... 1-17-ONLY/ -- there are appearances by all the pilots plus a couple of the WILLE girls (Sakura and the pink haired one), and Fuyutsuki's fingertips.

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Re: How misunderstood is Asuka?

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Postby pwhodges » Wed May 31, 2017 5:54 pm

View Original PostJoseki wrote:If Q Asuka really is a 28 years old in her mind, the same age as Misato was in 2.0, she should be able easily understand Shinji's situation and act accordingly.

Being adult isn't a guarantee either of understanding or of sympathy.
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Re: How misunderstood is Asuka?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed May 31, 2017 7:24 pm

View Original Postrobersora wrote:^
Oh yeah, totally forgot about space Asuka.

How can you forget about Space Pirate Asuka? She is a gift from the heavens.

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Re: How misunderstood is Asuka?

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Postby silvermoonlight » Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:59 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:How can you forget about Space Pirate Asuka? She is a gift from the heavens.


Space pirate Asuka I love that title ^_^

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Re: How misunderstood is Asuka?

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Postby The Cruel » Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:57 pm

That's total bullshit that people still think, that because of the Curse of Eva, Asuka isn't able to mentally mature properly. It has to be considered that she went through 14 years more of her life and she gained twice the amount of life and combat experience for piloting Eva. I can imagine that people are making fun of her behind her back because of that and that she doesn't get the recognition she deserves. Even if I would be the only one who gives a damn about her while everyone would see her as a abomination created from the consequences of total human failure and sins, I would still do that.

Asuka can be many things and I feel a lot for her even if it's sometimes anger and dissapointment. She is capable to influence the balance of the universe even through simple words and actions. I think as someone who knows her, I understand her enough by saying, that I like her very much. And nothing in the world wont change that. Even if she could kill someone or make their lives miserable.
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Re: How misunderstood is Asuka?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:07 pm

^ I'm not sure if anyone's really arguing that Asuka isn't mentally matured in Eva Q. However, there should be a distinction between "having 14 extra years of experience/knowledge" and "14 extra years of biological and chemical growth in the brain that usually comes with completing puberty." There is a difference that needs to be recognized, and what we've seen so far in Space Pirate Asuka isn't enough to conclude one way or another as to whether or not her brain has been developing as it's been gaining new experiences in the 14 years since Eva Ha.

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Re: How misunderstood is Asuka?

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Postby The Cruel » Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:08 pm

^
So you mean that despite being 28 now, her actions, thoughts and behavior could still be seen as that of a teen? Then it would indeed be a curse she lives with and knowing that no matter how much time goes by, she'll always be remembered what she is. :sniffle:
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Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:42 am

I know this is a silly question as the answer is quite obvious. But still, Shinji could've finished​ Asuka off if he wanted to, for all the trouble she may have caused him and for being a part of his problem. I'm pretty sure at some point, Shinji must've hated Asuka as much as she hated him.

Sure, her actions towards him may not be as bad Gendo's, but no other character had treated him badly as she did( her verbal abuse, her violent outbursts, taking most of her problems out on Shinji and blaming him for it, even though it was indirectly.). After all the pain, trouble, and annoyance she caused him, it's no wonder Shinji wanted to go as far as to strangle her( I mean, who doesn't want to at some point?). Shinji had taken all he can from her until he reached his breaking point.

And to think that Asuka would have learned something from the kitchen scene during pre-Instrumentality. She may be a bit sassy towards others, but she can't just go and treat everyone like crap as she pleases and expect to get away with it. Otherwise, all her actions will eventually come back to bite her. She obviously did not see it coming when Shinii decided to finally strangle her out of frustration towards her, which may or may not be justified, depending on how you see it.

So then, why wouldn't Shinji want to finish what he started at the beach and in the kitchen scene? Wouldn't he have been better off without the person like Asuka? The person who have been causing him so much grief for no apparent reason?
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby Sicarius VI » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:46 am

Well a few things really. (Oh boy discussion about Eva, it's been a while for me)

1. Shinji was not choking Asuka to try and kill her, but figure out if she was alive, we find this all out from a trading card game that the name escapes my mind, but it's been officially endorsed by Anno and Gainax.

2. The end of EoE is really suppose to be about acceptance. When Asuka caresses Shinji's face like Yui did moments(as seen by the auidence, for Shinji we don't know the time between him coming out of HIP and Asuka) before there is a sense of acceptance between the two. Even Asuka's infamous line "How disgusting" us just a follow up to how she now knows Shinji wacked off to her in the beginning of the movie and her very Asuka response.

3. Going through HIP, Shinji may have very well saw Asuka's past and understands why she acted the way she does. Again coming back to acceptance, and also hope.
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby Guy Nacks » Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:32 am

View Original PostSicarius VI wrote:Even Asuka's infamous line "How disgusting" us just a follow up to how she now knows Shinji wacked off to her in the beginning of the movie and her very Asuka response.


This is very much up for debate, though. She already addressed him whacking off to her earlier in the film, so I'm inclined to believe that her final line focuses on something different. In my opinion, I think she's referencing the entire experience and fallout of 3rd Impact and the HIP.
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby Joseki » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:41 am

I don't think Shinji had any real intention of hurting Asuka, but anyway the reason why he stopped doing whatever he was doing and started crying was very clear:

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Asuka gave him some love for the first time, he probably felt infinite emotions at the same time, started crying and wasn't able to do anything for a while.
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby peripateia » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:57 pm

One more final is the most straightforward demonstration of the Hedgehog's dilemma in the NGE universe. Hedgehog's dilemma in a nutshell: the closer you get to someone, the more pain you will experience from this person. Yet if you choose to remain aloof from others, you will miss out on the human warmth that you crave by nature.

My interpretation of the beach scene:
Shinji strangled Asuka to confirm that she was her own self, that the AT fields were back. In a perverse way, he hurt her to be closer to her. And she reciprocated with the most tenderness she'd ever shown anyone. Shinji broke down in tears from realizing that he'd hurt her deeply. And Asuka replied with disgust because they were back to square one: they were still two lonely people who hurt one another whenever they try to get closer.

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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby Chuckman » Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:30 pm

He had to buy her dinner first.

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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:33 am

peripateia wrote:And she reciprocated with the most tenderness she'd ever shown anyone

Joseki wrote:Asuka gave him some love for the first time

And how is Asuka even capable of such gestures? I mean, she was never able to show such kindness towards a person before, much less towards Shinji, whom she may have despised before.
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby Kendrix » Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:45 pm

View Original PostSicarius VI wrote:1. Shinji was not choking Asuka to try and kill her, but figure out if she was alive, we find this all out from a trading card game that the name escapes my mind, but it's been officially endorsed by Anno and Gainax.


That doesN't mean they screened every part/ would be speculation that they simply let be. I mean if he never intended to strangle her at all if would really take away from the scene & the violent iconography in it. Otherwise he could just, like, poke her.


To begin with, Shinji isn't really the "murdery revenge" kind of guy & tends to feel bad about causing distress even to ppl who are his enemies or when he couldn't help it. He's generally more lowkey about expressing frustration, more likely to get all mouthy & complain about unfairness than to confront anyone head on & throughout the series he consistently doesn't want any human lives on his hands, even if he's not very sucessul or realistic about accomplishing this.
EoE represents a point where he's pushed so far by so much trauma & punishment that the pent-up inner resentment comes to the outside - in terms of narrative craftng so it can be purged & dealth with. This the very day after Kaworu's death, Shinji considered drowning himsef earlier that morning - a wholly exceptional circumstance really, had he been given even a couple of days to bounce back the whole thing would have gone differently (but we would have a boringer movie, so yeah.)

It also has to be considered that its implied that he was on his own for a while, thinking he'd killed everyone (the script specifies that those posts like the one with Misato's cross on it were supposed to be gravemarkers) - Choking her was probably a split-second impulsive decision to begin with, like, he saw her & was overtaken with wrath about all the grievances she caused him, & seized her by the neck, but it wasn't the sort of deliberate decision that it would be hard to dissuade him from given that he's not usually a violent person.
The physical touch basically made him snap out of it & realize what he's doing. It's something sure to get a response from him because he's just not very used to physical affection.

I mean she was a jerk to him, but someone being a jerk doesn't mean you're justified in killing them - its the opposite that would need more justification, not sparing her, it's not an all or nothing thing - Besides, the whole movie was about Shinji comming to terms with coexisting with others even if it's at times hard & painful - & here Asuka, a person he's had nothing but conflict with (with the hormonal crush merely adding to it) is a standin for all the difficulties one encounters during interaction. It's kind of a microcosm of the movie in which Shinji almost went through with Third Impact because he's just so through with the world - "They never cared for me so why should I stop their demise?" (note that his decision to do this is also representated by his choking a mental representation of Asuka) - through deliberation he basically comes to decide that this isn't really what he wants & undoes everything by coming back.
Letting Asuka go is sort of an affirmation or continuation of that, of "We have to coexist even if it sucks".

In the end the scene was meant to be ambiguous & discussed to death & probably crafted more with the idea of leaving a certain emotional taste in the viewer's mouth.

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:And how is Asuka even capable of such gestures? I mean, she was never able to show such kindness towards a person before, much less towards Shinji, whom she may have despised before.


Personally, I chose to interpret Asuka's side of things in the light of how that line was supposed to go in the draft: "I'll never let someone like you kill me!" which Anno probably felt didn't have enough Oophm.

Asukas own story in the movie is that after being to the lowest of lows she finds out that when she's actually faced with the prospect of being killed, she doesn't actually want to die - after all her whole over-the-top pride & were that she feared that she'd get screwed over & be destroyed just like her mom if she wasn't invincible & perfect. I don't think this was something Asuka was consciously aware of before, she was all like "I'd rather die than lose my pride" and instead seems to have at last starved herself if not outright attempted suicide when they find her in ep 24.
Her callous conpetitive behavior is self-preservation thrown into overdrive & twisted into a perverse knot that ultimately does the opposite (as it is often the case with ppl's complexes and defensive patterns) - & from the moment she wakes up to the sound of those bombs her goal is pretty much to survive - a sort of full circle since she always kind of represented vitality & force.
At first she's kinda whimpering & afraid but reuniting with her mother & getting her side of the story gives her the motivation boost to actually act to make it happen & once EVA 02 activates, she fights like a savage to her last breath; Then, she presumably gets her soul picked up by a random Rei apparition the way Misato & Ritsuko did & much of what we see during instrumentality related primarily to Shinji's PoV of things, their various communication fails & what she represents to him, but on the beach scene we see Asuka proper back to full individuality as if she'd just come from her battle (the bandages are probably meant to remind us of it) - her being back earlier than the average person could have to do with her personally knowing Shinji & thus noticing he wasn't in the collective, thereby being reminded of her individuality, but it probably also has to do with how her las conscious thoughts were not wanting to die - so she's still acting out of that motivation.

Even in the finished draft, she's note to say her last line "in the coldest possible voice" - And given that he did almost kill her & do something that, extreme circumstances aside, is basically sexual harassment, that's not surprising .
I think she reached out because she knew it would get him to relent, though there may have been other less conscious motivations - when he stops & breaks down, we see that she doesn't have any sympathy for him at all (which again she has no reason to though it's hard not to see a continuation o her usual contempt) - in a sense, that's a fulfillment of the caveat that Shinji was told: Bring the AT fields back and people will be able to hurt & deceive each other again. We're seeing the first moment of hurt & deception, in a sense a confirmation that instrumentality is truly undone & thsús "all we need to know"


As for "her actions comming back to bite her", didn't Asuka get more than enough of that? I mean from ep 16 onwards it starts dawning on her that her fantasy reality where she's a perfect person is not the truth, she ends up in partially self-inflicted isolation (much like Shinji), her vainglorious need to prove herself gets her into progressively messier defeats.
In the end she's just a douchey teenager - it's not like she's not to blame for it (sure she had a bad past but so did nearly everyone else & while they're all flawed they're not, like, actively mean to everyone they meet), but only in so far as a traumatized teenager can be responsible for anything.
Someone who's dead can't learn after all.

I mean if she were a real person and I a person her age or younger (as I was when I first watched the show) I would probably hugely dislike her & avoid being around her but saying she deserves death is a huge different caliber, and saying that it's surprisig Shinji didn't off her seems like a bit of a burn-the-witch attitude to me. Choking her is ultimately a heinous act in itself even if we can understand & forgive Shinji under the execeptional circumstances. It's not a good thing, and it would be even worse if he'd gone through with it. He'ck, he'd probably have blamed himself forever once he's come to his senses.
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby Sicarius VI » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:11 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:That doesN't mean they screened every part/ would be speculation that they simply let be. I mean if he never intended to strangle her at all if would really take away from the scene & the violent iconography in it. Otherwise he could just, like, poke her.



Completely disagree with you here. First off, I never said "He never intended to strangle her" what I said was "Shinji was not choking Asuka to try and kill her, but figure out if she was alive" which comes from this in the trading card game.

"Shinji renounced the world where all hearts had melted into one and accepted each other unconditionally. His desire... to live with 'others' -- other hearts that would sometimes reject him, even deny him. That is why the first thing he did after coming to his senses was to place his hands around Asuka's neck. To feel the existence of an 'other'. To confirm (make sure of) rejection and denial."


Also, I HIGHLY doubt Gainax would have supported the card game and gave it the green light if they didn't look over everything. I'm going to give you this source here, as this person puts it in better words than I ever could. https://eva.onegeek.org/pipermail/oldev ... 40379.html

The reason for your dismissal of the card game is wrong and completely unwarranted.

______

Besides that I agree with a lot of what you said, and hell the same card game you just dismissed helps your argument specifically here.

It also has to be considered that its implied that he was on his own for a while, thinking he'd killed everyone (the script specifies that those posts like the one with Misato's cross on it were supposed to be gravemarkers)


Again, a lot of EoE is about Acceptance and at the very end Hope.
Last edited by Sicarius VI on Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:16 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:I mean she was a jerk to him, but someone being a jerk doesn't mean you're justified in killing them - its the opposite that would need more justification, not sparing her,

What would one suggest then? And what do you mean by "the opposite that would need more justification, not sparing her" part?
I think she reached out because she knew it would get him to relent, though there may have been other less conscious motivations - when he stops & breaks down, we see that she doesn't have any sympathy for him at all (which again she has no reason to though it's hard not to see a continuation o her usual contempt)

So she doesn't love him then? Or even care about him at all? I should have known as such. Then again, that's just Asuka, nothing but hate and contempt in her.

As for "her actions comming back to bite her", didn't Asuka get more than enough of that?

I think she could use more of that, until she learns something.
In the end she's just a douchey teenager ....I mean if she were a real person and I a person her age or younger (as I was when I first watched the show) I would probably hugely dislike her & avoid being around her but saying she deserves death is a huge different caliber, and saying that it's surprisig Shinji didn't off her seems like a bit of a burn-the-witch attitude to me.

That first part is just another reason why not to like Asuka. If she were a real person like you said, I probably wouldn't want her near me. Not until she learns to straighten out.
And what do mean by "different caliber"? Yes, death towards a fictional character is a bit much, but if not that and then coming back from Instrumentality, how else is she suppose to learn from her mistakes? And I think that since Asuka has given Shinji nothing but grief, then it's right for him to finish what he started from the kitchen scene; just a way to get her to shut up and mind her attitude. It was only a matter of time before Shinji decided he has had enough of Asuka and overly obnoxious attitude. Enough was enough.
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Re: Why didn't Shinji finish Asuka off in EOE?

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:24 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:So she doesn't love him then? Or even care about him at all? I should have known as such.

She doesn't need to love him to feel a degree of natural human sympathy or understanding towards him. Admittedly, thinking otherwise is a common teenage aberration, but most move past it.

It was only a matter of time before Shinji decided he has had enough of Asuka and overly obnoxious attitude. Enough was enough.

I guess that both of them learnt more from their experience in instrumentality than you appear to have learnt from watching them go through it. And that was rather the point of the whole thing!
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