Hikari and Kensuke

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Hikari and Kensuke

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Postby zlink64 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:45 am

Want some opinions on this:

The scene when Asuka shares a bed with Hikari in Episode 23 and the scene in episode 19 when Shinji hangs up Kensuke highlights why it is Shinji and Asuaka are drawn to each other since they show that none of their peers understand them the way they do each other.


Any know wanna add any information that they think is necessary and that would enhance this. Or share opinions agree,disagree,W/e.
hmmm

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Re: Hikari and Kensuke

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Postby Director Black » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:06 pm

Hikari shows herself when she's class rep. as a hard leader; a commanding presence.

When we see her talking with Toji we see a softer side with her. She even tells Toji that "People probably wouldn't expect her to cook". It shows that she wants to show herself but also has to do her job as class representitve.

This softer side presents her as something Asuka can relate to; someone where two lonely souls (Using the term lonely based on Hikari seeking out Toji) bonding over something.
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Re: Hikari and Kensuke

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Postby Kendrix » Wed May 17, 2017 7:01 am

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:The scene when Asuka shares a bed with Hikari in Episode 23 and the scene in episode 19 when Shinji hangs up Kensuke highlights why it is Shinji and Asuaka are drawn to each other since they show that none of their peers understand them the way they do each other.


Contrived af. Obviously those scenes are supposed to highlight their growing isolation, its partially self-imposed nature and how they have to put up (I think Kensuke may actually have been fully & knowingly willing to risk his life like that, but Shinji likely read this as him not getting how serious everything is, or, not yet knowing what happened to Touji & either of these creating an unsurmountable distance)
The situations aren't exactly the same despite the common denominator of isolation & things going to shit - Asuka's in a self-pity spiral because of perceived failures & losses & none of Hikari's in itself rather heartfelt & genuine support gets through to her. She doesn't put her foot in her mouth the way Kensuke does, it's more that Asuka is just that devastated & convinced that receiving help and compassion equals weakness, to the point that she won't even take it from her own best friend, who, unlike Shinji Misato or Rei, was never even a rival to her & generally the only person she was consistently nice to.

With Shinji, the crux of the situation is more about moral guilt - He was put in this whole "sadistic choice/moral dillema situation", utterly failed to deal with it and as a result, got their mutual friend maimed - and Touji was Kensuke's friend before he was Shinji's. He totally blames himself for it & can't face his classmates out of shame/ can't conceive of himself looking them in the eyes & explaining what took place - also at the point the phonecall happened Shinji was stubbornly set on leaving Tokyo-3 and having nothing to do with it anymore & further engaging with anyone from there would just shatter his resolve - that's also why he avoided talking to Asuka or Rei. He was basically all like, "They're forcing me to do unfair things so I can wash my hands of them" & blocking out everywhere else, until he couldn't anymore because Kaji explained the magnitude stakes to him as Asuka & Rei were getting their butts kicked before his very eyes.

The basic of Shinji and Asuka is that they do not understand each other... AT ALL. They don't even remotely comprehend each other to the point that Asuka's used as a stand on for the unpredictability of people in general.
That doesn't mean this can't ever be different and a lot of the parts of the show that have both of them in it are is how they should be able to cope with each other existing, but whatever potential there may or may not be, there's no point in the series where they understand each other or properly communicated in the first place.
They're always remarking/musing about how they just don't get each other, have rather opposite personalities etc. that they had somewhat similar backstories just highlights how different their reactions are (& how existential loneliness is an universal human thing) & for the most part get along far better with their respective friends than they ever did with each other.
Can't the scenes just be about those friendships (& the general themes/ their character's overall shortcommings) than for shilling something completely unrelated?
If you wanted to draw a contrast it may be to the way more successful sleepover conversation Shinji has with Kaworu, where there's actually similar visuals present that is, of course, until he's revealed to be an angel, but even that's kinda incidental.
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Postby zlink64 » Wed May 17, 2017 1:51 pm

I connected the two scenes because they are both instances of a friend trying and failing to help another friend directly due to not being able to understand them. Let me expalin:
Kesuke/Shinji Scene:

Kensuke "Are you there, Shinji?Is it true that you are leaving? It's true isn't it. But Why? Why are you running away now? I wanted to be like you. I envied you. You're different from us. Damn! Even toji became an Eva Pilot, while I...

Shini never says a word and Nerve/goverenment who ever cuts line off.

Obviously Kenseuke doesn't understand Shinji despite trying to talk to him.

Asuka/Hikari Scene:
Asuke: I'm sorry. Am I a bother?
Hikari: No, not at all.
Asuka: I wasn't able to win in my Eva.I'm not worth anything anymore. Not anywhere. I hate it. I hate it all. I hate everyone. But What I hate the most is myself. Somehow, I feel like nothing matters anymore.
Hikari: I think it's okay for you to do whatever you want and I won't say anything, because I think you did your best, Asuka.
Asuka cries.

Asuaka is specifically looking to be consoled and Hikari fails to do it.
Also it's worth noting that the scene itself is very cold. Hikari delivers her response with a dead pan face and never moves or touches Asuka. And during the conversation we get a bunch of close up cuts to Hikaris face while listening to Asuka and again no emotion from her. All she does is stares at the ceiling and we get a shot of both them on the bed that imo further highlights the coldness of the scene since it's ironic how distant they are from eachother on a bed.
And because of the emphasize this show puts on touch and sex in general in relation to how people relate to each other I'm willing to consider that all the coldness in this scene isn't coincident...especially given how anal the show is about details. And the imagery of Asuka curly up reminds me of the imagery when Shinji curls up when Misato fails to console him in their bedroom scene.

To clarify I'm not saying she doesn't care about Asuka only that the scene is highlighting that she is incapable of really help her.

Hopefully my logic here sounds less contrived now.

You "The basic of Shinji and Asuka is that they do not understand each other... AT ALL."

I think it's more accurate to say they FAIL to understand each other since during the ending it becomes a lot clearer that they do in fact understand each other quit well since they are going through the same problems. There's dialogue in there that implies an understanding between them if not out right saying so if I remember correctly.

So, I'm just gonna strongly disagree with this sentiment: " They don't even remotely comprehend each other to the point that Asuka's used as a stand on for the unpredictability of people in general."

Also I'm not shilling....which is weird description of this btw lol. The only reason I asked this originally was because I was talking with someone about eva and they said Hikari was a pointless character and the ideas I'm sharing with you now are what immediately came to mind during that conversation and I tried to explain what I though her purpose was within the context of the story. That being said since these were just thoughts that were sitting in the back of my head apparently I wanted to test/share them to see if it was just me.

Side note: it probably best to compare the Shinji/Kaworu bed scene with the Kahji/ Shinii sleep over imo but that's a different topic entirely.
Last edited by zlink64 on Wed May 17, 2017 2:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hikari and Kensuke

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Postby Bagheera » Wed May 17, 2017 2:09 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Contrived af. Obviously those scenes are supposed to highlight their growing isolation, its partially self-imposed nature and how they have to put up (I think Kensuke may actually have been fully & knowingly willing to risk his life like that, but Shinji likely read this as him not getting how serious everything is, or, not yet knowing what happened to Touji & either of these creating an unsurmountable distance)
The situations aren't exactly the same despite the common denominator of isolation & things going to shit - Asuka's in a self-pity spiral because of perceived failures & losses & none of Hikari's in itself rather heartfelt & genuine support gets through to her. She doesn't put her foot in her mouth the way Kensuke does, it's more that Asuka is just that devastated & convinced that receiving help and compassion equals weakness, to the point that she won't even take it from her own best friend, who, unlike Shinji Misato or Rei, was never even a rival to her & generally the only person she was consistently nice to.


I actually think they are about the same, because in both cases the other party just doesn't understand the gravity of the situation. Asuka isn't just rejecting Hikari's help, she thinks it's well and truly useless -- she's been dismissed from Nerv at this point, so it's a lot more than self-pity eating at her; her life as she knew it is effectively over, and she doesn't have any options going forward. Shinji's in much the same boat in 19 -- he's absolutely wrecked by what his father did to him (or made him do), and he's completely lost faith in his role and everyone around them. Encouraging words don't really help at that point (unless the speaker's watering watermelons, I guess).

And I think they actually do understand one another in one critical respect: each knows the other is far enough down the rabbit hole that help is impossible. They know there's nothing they can do, whether for themselves or one another or anyone else.
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby zlink64 » Wed May 17, 2017 2:16 pm

(unless the speaker's watering watermelons, I guess). Lols

Also, That's kind why I think there a lot of parrels between Kaji and Kaworu. They both seem to have this power to like talk to Shinji. I think it's the show trying to get us to notice what you are mentioning. Like They share some weird quality that makes them easy to talk to. Something Kesuke and Hikari...and pretty much the rest of the cast lack.
hmmm

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Postby Sachi » Wed May 17, 2017 2:21 pm

Kaji and Kaworu are the two only characters that accept Shinji as he is; they actively try to understand Shinji, and they hold little judgement against him nor do they have any expectations of him.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed May 17, 2017 4:04 pm

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Postby zlink64 » Wed May 17, 2017 4:14 pm

You know what's crazy is that as I typed out my response to Kendrix my thoughts of this idea of sexual tension with Hikari did cross my mind. Like I was thinking "Like Hypothetically can someone even help Asuka without holding her/sexy stuff?" Thanks For sharing!
Last edited by zlink64 on Wed May 17, 2017 4:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Wed May 17, 2017 4:16 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:I was reminded about this old thread on one half of the equation.

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Postby zlink64 » Wed May 17, 2017 4:19 pm

Obsessed math freak said this : "But are these potential matches in and of themselves conclusive? I think there needs to be a good argument, or further evidence before a solid connection could be made here. Not least of which is Hikari's implied homosexuality, which it is safe to say does not get any Maya/Ritsuko treatment."

I don't think it so much about Hikari being gay as it is about Just showing us/viewer that Hikari can't offer what Asuaka needs/wants. But I dunno. Math freak might be right...Maybe Hikari would've let Asuka do something or maybe it's a play on words(assuming his translation is good).....

Note: If you read further down the old thread they talk about how maybe it's about giving Asuka room to cry and they make a good case for it. And they say the theme of sex is unlikely.

Imo I don't think both views are mutually exclusive. I think the theme of sex in the scene isn't meant to be taken literally but instead metaphorically. Basically I'm saying I agree with what they say in the old thread but I don't think they should just out right dismiss the theme of sex in the scene. Like sex in Eva has more meaning than just boning.
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Re: Hikari and Kensuke

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Postby silvermoonlight » Thu May 18, 2017 4:10 pm

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:
Asuka/Hikari Scene:
Asuke: I'm sorry. Am I a bother?
Hikari: No, not at all.
Asuka: I wasn't able to win in my Eva.I'm not worth anything anymore. Not anywhere. I hate it. I hate it all. I hate everyone. But What I hate the most is myself. Somehow, I feel like nothing matters anymore.
Hikari: I think it's okay for you to do whatever you want and I won't say anything, because I think you did your best, Asuka.
Asuka cries.

Asuaka is specifically looking to be consoled and Hikari fails to do it.
Also it's worth noting that the scene itself is very cold. Hikari delivers her response with a dead pan face and never moves or touches Asuka. And during the conversation we get a bunch of close up cuts to Hikaris face while listening to Asuka and again no emotion from her. All she does is stares at the ceiling and we get a shot of both them on the bed that imo further highlights the coldness of the scene since it's ironic how distant they are from eachother on a bed.
And because of the emphasize this show puts on touch and sex in general in relation to how people relate to each other I'm willing to consider that all the coldness in this scene isn't coincident...especially given how anal the show is about details.


I agree with you I always felt in this scene Hikari just had no idea how to deal some one who had very deep depression, because it something she had never experienced herself and maybe in her eyes what Asuka was going through was sadness which she thought might pass with the right words but it doesn't work because I don't think Asuka wanted to hear those words from her but from someone much closer like Shinji or Misato. I think Kensuke with Shinji is the same hence why he couldn't really connect with him where as Misato understands Shinji's depression and tries to help him but fails because she's just not good with her people skills and doesn't know how to reach people emotionally at times.
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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Sat May 20, 2017 10:45 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:she's been dismissed from Nerv at this point,
This scene happens at the beginning of ep. 23, before Asuka fails to initialize her Eva against Armisael. Maybe my memory is a bit off, but she technically isn't dismissed from NERV until after that point.

When it comes to Hikari and Kensuke in relation to Asuka and Shinji, I agree with the idea that they don't understand their situations. Asuka didn't want somebody to say "you did your best, you should be proud"... as a matter of fact, if I had to guess, that's probably the last thing she wanted to hear from anybody in consolation. Granted, it's a very awkward situation and Hikari and the rest of their classmates are all still young. A perfunctory recital of what she's heard others say in situations like this is only natural to someone without any real experience dealing with these kinds of situations. Unfortunately, what she chooses to say makes it sound as though she has little to no real understanding of Asuka's plight (which, she probably doesn't), and so more than likely makes Asuka feel even more pathetic for her failure. Hearing common phrases of consolation makes her feel like something to be pitied, and things that are pitied are generally weak and depending on how negative one's perception is, pathetic. In other words, the attention and pity they are getting is because they are so lowly that they require it. Considering she just got done stating she feels she's no longer valuable as a human being, Hikari's consolation directly reinforces her new self-perception.

As far as Shinji and Kensuke goes... it's pretty obvious to see how Kensuke doesn't get anything that's going on. He calls Shinji and tells him that he envies the terrible position he finds himself having to endure, and he even goes on to whine about how even Touji was selected as a pilot. Clearly he hasn't taken any time to try and understand the reality of what being an Eva pilot is like. His view on the matter is very childish and immature.

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Postby Bagheera » Sat May 20, 2017 10:48 pm

View Original PostStrokeMeGoat wrote:This scene happens at the beginning of ep. 23, before Asuka fails to initialize her Eva against Armisael. Maybe my memory is a bit off, but she technically isn't dismissed from NERV until after that point.


I sit corrected!
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Hikari and Kensuke

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Sun May 21, 2017 1:37 am

I think Hikari & Kensuke would make a cute couple.

...That's what the topic is right? Right?!

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Sun May 21, 2017 4:18 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I sit corrected!

Well, you weren't incorrect on the basic context of the situation though. Her getting both of Unit-02's arms cut off and decapitated, only to be saved by Shinji in the end isn't much better than failing to synchronize I'd imagine, at least for her. I think the fact Shinji disappeared for around a month probably just compounded the issue.


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