Universal Monsters shared universe films

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Ray
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Re: Universal Monsters shared universe films

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Postby Ray » Tue May 02, 2017 8:12 pm

. Going for an R rating is fine, but doing it for gore would be a huge mistake. The best horror movies have very little gore in them


I guess you've never seen John Carpenter's The Thing, House Of 1000 Corpses, the original Nightmare On Elm Street, the Hammer Dracula movies starring Christopher Lee, Dawn Of The Dead (both the original, sequels, and the remake), Dead By Dawn, Evil Dead, Army Of Darkness, ANYTHING BY CROENENBERG? (okay, Croenenberg doesn't use much gore until the finales of his movies, but when he does he uses A LOT, rewatch the finale of the Fly.)

All of these movies are considered some of the best in their genre , and they feature MOUNTAINS of blood and gore.

Horror movies these days are way too clean and slick. If Universal want to differentiate itself from other horror movies out there? They need to make them a little more grungy and raw. You don't have to go as far as to make them Evil Dead style people blenders, but part of the fun of horror (at least from the 80's) is the novelty of blood and gore.
movies that inspired the current franchise certainly didn't need it.


They didn't need it. They couldn't have it because things like the Hayes code, and conservative lobbyists kept them from having anything really explicit or extreme in them. They've stood the test of time more through pop culture osmosis, and camp charm than they have through actually being great movies (with maybe the exception of the Frankenstein movies).

Have you watched the original Dracula with Bela Lugosi? It's TERRIBLE.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVPxAgy7lBA
playing around with the power these creatures possess is a big part of what inspires audiences to show up.


The box office to Dracula Untold says otherwise.

In 1999 there was still 'novelty' in seeing a giant sandstorm monster with the bad guys face. Today? I don't care how many times you destroy a major city, I don't feel anything. I feel much more from a smaller movie with smaller stakes, than I do from a movie where the city is consumed by a sandstorm. I feel much more from a movie about a single person trying to get away from a monster than I do from a movie about a generic city, with generic people they don't bother fleshing out, getting killed by a generic monster.

Deadpool was a smaller movie compared to Avengers and BVS, and look how well that movie did!

Take a look at all of your examples: they've not only been done, they've been done to death, and another rehash of the same boring shit won't impress.


There's nothing wrong with retreading ground that's been tread before to set the stage for bigger things down the road. You don't want to make a movie with a divisive plot and character that alienates the audience and then spend the next 5-6 movies retconning it/apologizing for it instead of commiting to your original creative vision, before just saying 'screw it' and reboot/soft-reboot the whole thing.

(COUGH)ManOfSteel(COUGH)BatmanVSuperman(COUGH COUGH)JUSTICELEAGUE(COUGH)

Start small. You HAVE to make sure the first few movies in your cinematic universe have at least some broad appeal. THEN you can afford to do something fresh with these characters that's never been done, but not before. You need to introduce the characters and have greater context to the world before you try new things.
Horror fans loved Dracula Untold,


The box office, and Universals decision to junk it says otherwise.

Side rant. I didn't like Dracula Untold. Y'know why? DRACULA IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE SYMPATHETIC. DRACULA IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE A HERO. Oh sure, you can give him a sympathetic backstory. But the audience isn't supposed to see him as anything but an irredeemable monster that needs to be taken down by the heroes.

Both the character in the original Bram Stoker novel, and the historical figure he was based upon (Vlad Tepes) are not meant to be heroes. Making a Dracula a heroic likeable character, is akin to making a movie about a good guy Pol Pot. Dracula was a man who was so evil he killed a priest with his bare hands in front of two other members of the clergy when the priest told him his hatred and cruelty would damn him to hell. This was a man whos own men left him to die on the battlefield despite his nearly universal military successes against the invading Ottoman forces, because he was JUST THAT EVIL.

My ideal Dracula would be a character like Ramsey Bolton from Game Of Thrones. He should have a lust for life that he puts into his cruelty, he shouldn't care about others, his sole purpose in life should be being terrible to others to bring himself up.
Your demands would make the characters dull and one-dimensional, and horror fans these days want more -- twenty years of World of Darkness have seen to that.


The core of who these characters are IS one dimensional. They're physical embodiments of the deepest fears of the human Id. FEAR isn't rational. FEAR isn't sympathetic. FEAR isn't understandable as anything but an obstacle to overcome.

Dracula is about the Victorian fear of sex and foreigners, Frankenstein is about our fears about the ethical abuse of science, Jekyll/Hyde is about the fear of being mentally unsound, the Mummy is about our fears of the past coming back to haunt our present, Wolfman is about a teens fear of puberty, The Creature is about the nihilistic implications of evolutionary theory.

I understand it's a trend, and trends come in cycles. Absolute forces of evil are out, sympathetic villains with heroic backstories are in. For some of these characters the sympathetic backstory works. Jekyll/Hyde, Wolfman, Frankenstein? Sure? Dracula, Creature, the Mummy? Not so much.
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Re: Universal Monsters shared universe films

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Postby Bagheera » Tue May 02, 2017 8:46 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:I guess you've never seen John Carpenter's The Thing, House Of 1000 Corpses, the original Nightmare On Elm Street, the Hammer Dracula movies starring Christopher Lee, Dawn Of The Dead (both the original, sequels, and the remake), Dead By Dawn, Evil Dead, Army Of Darkness, ANYTHING BY CROENENBERG? (okay, Croenenberg doesn't use much gore until the finales of his movies, but when he does he uses A LOT, rewatch the finale of the Fly.)


And I guess you've never seen Alien, Halloween, Psycho, The Ring, or any of the dozens and dozens of other movies out there that build their tension through technique rather than schlock?

Gore isn't horror, it's just a crutch. Horror is about atmosphere and getting into the head of the audience. When you do it right the gore is just a distraction.

The box office to Dracula Untold says otherwise.


So box office receipts denote quality, now? My, how you've changed your tune!

Dracula Untold might not have been historically accurate, but newsflash: vampire movie. Historical accuracy was never on the table to begin with. Turning Dracula into a sympathetic protag was genius, and we'd be lucky to get more of the same (particularly if it's handled more intelligently next time around).

The core of who these characters are IS one dimensional. They're physical embodiments of the deepest fears of the human Id. FEAR isn't rational. FEAR isn't sympathetic. FEAR isn't understandable as anything but an obstacle to overcome.


Twenty years of World of Darkness says otherwise.

Dracula is about the Victorian fear of sex and foreigners, Frankenstein is about our fears about the ethical abuse of science, Jekyll/Hyde is about the fear of being mentally unsound, the Mummy is about our fears of the past coming back to haunt our present, Wolfman is about a teens fear of puberty, The Creature is about the nihilistic implications of evolutionary theory.


Except that's boring. Like I said, audiences deserve better. And Universal has already proven it can do better, so why not continue the trend?
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Re: Universal Monsters shared universe films

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Postby Ray » Tue May 02, 2017 9:03 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:So box office receipts denote quality, now? My, how you've changed your tune!


Rule #1 don't be a dick.

I wasn't referring to Quality I was referring to "what the audience wants". If they had wanted more of the same they would have gone to see it. Movie can be the greatest movie ever made but if nobody goes to see it, then we aren't going to see any more like it. ( not that I wanted to see more of a good guy Dracula but that's besides the point).


Dracula Untold might not have been historically accurate, but newsflash: vampire movie.


It's not about historical accuracy it's about respecting the core of who the character is.

You know how you get mad at Zack Snyder for making Superman dark and gritty and Moody, having Batman kill, and making Lex Luthor a skinny nerd? I feel the way you feel about those changes, for these characters. Because well it could make for an interesting story, it's not who these characters are, it's not the version of these characters I want to see on the big screen. And it's not what made them popular or compelling to begin with
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Re: Universal Monsters shared universe films

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Postby Bagheera » Tue May 02, 2017 9:47 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:I wasn't referring to Quality I was referring to "what the audience wants". If they had wanted more of the same they would have gone to see it. Movie can be the greatest movie ever made but if nobody goes to see it, then we aren't going to see any more like it. ( not that I wanted to see more of a good guy Dracula but that's besides the point).


But the movie was a success by any measure, earning 3x its cost at the box office, so I really don't know what you're going on about here. Audiences did go to see it. Critics didn't care for it, but they've never been worth a damn anyway.

It's not about historical accuracy it's about respecting the core of who the character is.


And who decides what that is? If you say the author I'll say Frankenstein is a goddamn atrocity, and that the monster should be a hero in any story about it worth telling. And that's just the slam dunk. Same can be said for all the others.

You know how you get mad at Zack Snyder for making Superman dark and gritty and Moody, having Batman kill, and making Lex Luthor a skinny nerd? I feel the way you feel about those changes, for these characters. Because well it could make for an interesting story, it's not who these characters are, it's not the version of these characters I want to see on the big screen. And it's not what made them popular or compelling to begin with


And yet you argue, come hell or high water, for those versions of Batman and Superman, and you whine incessantly when others point out how they don't work, so you can hardly rely on that argument now. And really, Universal's monsters aren't characters the way Batman and Superman are, so there's a lot more room for innovation there (particularly given the original works, which painted them as much more sympathetic).
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Universal Monsters shared universe films

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Postby Chuckman » Tue May 02, 2017 9:48 pm

Dracula can be both a disgusting monster and a tragic, sympathetic figure.
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Re: Universal Monsters shared universe films

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Postby Ray » Tue May 02, 2017 10:05 pm

And yet you argue, come hell or high water, for those versions of Batman and Superman, and you whine incessantly when others point out how they don't work,


Superman still saves lives in those movies, and is trying his best to be a good person because he cares about humanity, and is simply unsure about it. and it makes sense within the context of that cinematic universe. I've already said my piece on those versions of the character NUMEROUS times on the Superhero thread. I'm not in the mood to be persecuted and have my moral character attacked by a person like you for my preferences or my desire for darker entertainment.

@Chuck
Never seen that movie. But I assume that Dracula isn't a hero/good person in that version of the movie like Bags is proposing the Monster-verse version be.
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Re: Universal Monsters shared universe films

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Postby Chuckman » Tue May 02, 2017 10:51 pm

You need to see Shadow of the Vampire.
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Re: Universal Monsters shared universe films

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Postby Bagheera » Wed May 03, 2017 1:58 am

View Original PostRay wrote:Superman still saves lives in those movies, and is trying his best to be a good person because he cares about humanity, and is simply unsure about it. and it makes sense within the context of that cinematic universe. I've already said my piece on those versions of the character NUMEROUS times on the Superhero thread. I'm not in the mood to be persecuted and have my moral character attacked by a person like you for my preferences or my desire for darker entertainment.


Don't you think it's a little OTT to be complaining about persecution when you're the one who brought it up? You made the analogy, I pointed out why it didn't work. There's nothing to it beyond that.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Universal Monsters shared universe films

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Postby silvermoonlight » Wed May 03, 2017 9:51 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:
1. Going for an R rating is fine, but doing it for gore would be a huge mistake. The best horror movies have very little gore in them, and the movies that inspired the current franchise certainly didn't need it. Gore is a crutch for shitty movies everyone will forget the day after tomorrow. Universal can do far better.


I think I see where your coming from with this because I have noticed gore in horror movies can be used purely to gross you out but to me the huge problem in modern horror films is they do little to nothing to push up the psychological build up and relay heavily on jump scares. Jaws and John Carpenters The Thing were brilliant because you didn't know where the monster was and you had no idea when it was coming and the characters got more and more tense. I'm not saying don't have gore just use it correctly with character tension and make the audience really care about the characters so as they are picked off you feel emotion for them and when you finally see the monster you cheer when it dies because with horror less is more.

I also believe the showing the monster to soon is really hurting horror films in a huge way and its the reason werewolf and monster movies are now at an all time low. Also If universe wants to get back to there roots they should be going for gritty, dark bloody and paying a huge amount of attention to Hammer horror and 80's monster classics as those movies do at a lot of the above and this could work as not everyone has seen the hammer horror runs of the 70's or the 80's films so it would be a way of rebooting that formula to a new generation. It shouldn't be we need all these effects to beef a film out instead it should be I care about this man or woman character and I don't want them to die and I want to see them kill this monster.
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Re: Universal Monsters shared universe films

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Postby Chuckman » Wed May 03, 2017 6:38 pm

You can't really say horror doesn't need gore or does need gore. Every movie is a thing in itself, and it needs what it needs.

silvermoonlight wrote:


I agree with the second part of this but not the first. It's a lack of likable characters.

If you want to make a movie that's about disgusting the audience with gore effects, or scaring them with jumps, or maybe even making them feel a little sick inside for reveling in the torture of other people, then you can get some redneck zombies with meathooks and throw teenagers at them.

On the other hand, if you want it to genuinely frightening you have got to work it. You don't necessarily need to hide the monster or go light on gore.

Consider Alien. The initial horror takes place in a brightly lit room with the facehugger and the chest bursting scene. Then the movie hides the monster and goes dark. It plants the idea in your head: Look at what this thing did when it was born, imagine what the adult is doing to these people? Then it lets you work it out with your imagination.

The fountain of blood isn't where the horror comes from, though. It's from the confusion, the reaction of the actors, Lambert screaming. The tension and fear in Alien is all produced by the actors

If you want to make something scary, you build that on the human connection.

I'm not advocating for these movies to even be scary, though. To me monster movie does not equal horror movie. Monsters should be sympathetic. The horror isn't in what they do, it's what they are.
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Re: Universal Monsters shared universe films

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Postby movieartman » Mon May 22, 2017 3:47 pm

Dark Universe, Depp as the Invisible Man, Bardem as Frankenstein's monster all confirmed.
https://www.comicbookmovie.com/monsters ... ed-a151319
They really seem to be going for a very respectful affectionate adaption if that Montage of the classic films is anything to go by.
The amount of Black Lagoon footage was pleasing, really hopeful for its reboot.

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Re: Universal Monsters shared universe films

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Postby Chuckman » Mon May 22, 2017 4:32 pm

I wonder what celebrity Depp will impersonate to play the Invisible Man.

I'm kind of in love with taking footage from old Universal monster movies and re cutting into an EPIC CHANTING CHOIR EXCITEMENT TRAILER.

So there's no Dracula in this at all?
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Re: Universal Monsters shared universe films

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Postby Ray » Mon May 22, 2017 4:40 pm

I think they are planning to build him up as the big bad of the franchise like Marvel is doing with Thanos and DC is doing with Darkseid and/or Brainiac.
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!

Avatar:
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

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Re: Universal Monsters shared universe films

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Postby Chuckman » Mon May 22, 2017 4:51 pm

As much as I wanted a good guy Dracula and Charles Dance's character from Untold to be in this, that sounds neat too.

I'm legitimately curious as to how they'll handle this. Just going by trailers I expect Tom Cruise will end up with mummy powers somehow.

It'll be nice to go into a cinematic universe not being able to predict everything for once.
The true artist helps the world by revealing mystic truths.

"there are cracks in this timeline, void bubbling through. please remember that no matter what happens LOVE IS REAL" -Dr. Chuck Tingle, Ph. D

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Re: Universal Monsters shared universe films

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Mon May 22, 2017 10:24 pm

Johnny Depp's continual erasure of himself as an actor into just being a hack who wears silly hats is now complete. If he's playing the Invisible Man he'll probably just be a silly hat.


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