How does the Lance Of Longinus work exactly?

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How does the Lance Of Longinus work exactly?

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Postby Apogee Perigee » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:55 am

I could use some help understanding. The Evageeks wiki states it can destabilize an ATF. Is that similar to what GNR did? Or is it entirely different? I'm just looking for answers if you guys have any.

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Re: How does the Lance Of Longinus work exactly?

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Postby mammaluser » Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:59 pm

I personally don't know how it really works but as you may have heard in NGE or any eva related stuff, the lance incapacitates the individual that was impaled by it (i.e. adam in the arctic http://wiki.evageeks.org/images/3/33/Full-op_C234_adam-spear.jpg or unit 01 at the end of 2.22 http://imgur.com/RNmD4S3) as far as that i don't really know how it works.
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Re: How does the Lance Of Longinus work exactly?

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Postby NemZ » Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:27 pm

The spear/lance is kind of a great bit blank. We know that it came with the seeds as a partner/controller of sorts and it has a will of some kind of it's own. Apparently ti can pierce ATFs and merge with other beings to do... whatever the hell it is that giant eyeball cross thing 01 turned into was doing?

Nobody really knows, it's all just guesswork from there on out.
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Re: How does the Lance Of Longinus work exactly?

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Postby Psyfo » Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:18 am

One certain unique characteristic of the lance that nothing else can exhibit without the lance's assistance is creating an anti-AT field.

This is different from the way that Evas and Angels synchronize, interfere or create inverted AT fields to battle each other and achieve other goals. This is purely just obliterating which is why the lance can defeat or suppress any being with any level of AT field from angels to even seeds of life, the purpose for which it was made. I also think that's why it was a critical part of the instrumentality project to create an all-encompassing anti-AT field.

That is the main unique (and I feel most important) characteristic I've observed from it in terms of its function.

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Re: How does the Lance Of Longinus work exactly?

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Postby Reichu » Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:57 am

I'm not aware of any evidence (beyond the purely circumstantial) that the Spear plays a role in creating AATFs, actually. Every time an AATF is mentioned, it's said to be manifesting from a Seed or from Evas.
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Re: How does the Lance Of Longinus work exactly?

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Postby Psyfo » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:03 am

Hmm. Perhaps it is purely circumstantial you may be right on that point. I may have just taken that circumstantial evidence and considered it sufficient.

Aside from the fact that it pierces fields of anything like seeds and angels, I just haven't been able to see a situation where an anti-AT field was created or required to be created without a lance being present as one of the ingredients. Been a while since I watched but I've had that thought on my brain for a long time and attributed it to a characteristic from a lance. What else would they be for otherwise and why rely on something that couldn't bypass, suppress or surpass AT fields as a control for the ultimate life forms like seeds and their progeny?

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Re: How does the Lance Of Longinus work exactly?

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Postby Reichu » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:41 am

The Spear does indeed possess ATF suppressant abilities, but since AATFs are ascribed to Seeds or Evas, not Spears, I assumed that we were dealing with two different things that only seemed superficially similar.

The Spear is never, to my knowledge, shown generating its own field; instead, it nullifies those of others via an undisclosed mechanism. However, as demonstrated with Lilith in EoE, the AATF is an actual, potentially visible manifestation of a soul-bearing super-being. We know that regular ATFs are capable of canceling out or corroding fields, so it seems logical, to me, that an AATF is just a specialized form of the ATF.

Another thing to keep in mind is the inherent paradox of expecting the Spear to somehow help a Seed project any kind of field when it has such a well-defined reputation as a field-killer. It seems less convoluted, therefore, if the Seed generates its AATF without Spear "assistance".

As for the Spear's role in Instrumentality, this requires diving into convoluted subjects like just what exactly the Tree of Life is. Last time I wrote about this, I arrived at the possibility that the Spear is an agent of metaphysical change and manipulation. But trying to summarize this is rather difficult; here's the thread if you are inclined to torture yourself:

thread/18548/An-Ark-a-Tree-and-a-Big-Red-Room-Eva-Cosmology/
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Re: How does the Lance Of Longinus work exactly?

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Postby Psyfo » Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:01 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:The Spear does indeed possess ATF suppressant abilities, but since AATFs are ascribed to Seeds or Evas, not Spears, I assumed that we were dealing with two different things that only seemed superficially similar.


I'm kinda feeling you on this point but I just want to share some thoughts with you on this point. Feel free to correct my thinking. It has been my thought for years since watching that Inverted AT Field and Anti-AT Field are two separated concepts.

With the inverted AT Field it's more a case of one entity reversing the qualities of a another field in order for the combined fields to cancel. In a kind of you go up I go down or you go hot I go cold way. This would be the suppresant abilities from Evas and Angels you mentioned when they battle each other.
With and anti-AT Field it's literal cancellation of the ego barrier or any being no matter what quality it has. I always thought that ability belonged to the spears since they could bring down a life seed and were critical for instrumentality.

I understand there are couple of things that don't tie up here but I can't tell what.

The Spear is never, to my knowledge, shown generating its own field; instead, it nullifies those of others. However, as demonstrated with Lilith in EoE, the AATF is an actual visible manifestation. We know that regular ATFs are capable of canceling out or corroding others, so it seems logical, to me, that an AATF is just a specialized form of the ATF.


This is think I agree with the AATF being a specialized ATF since Adams AATF during second impact was design to wipe out Lilith-based life. It's however that nullification that makes me think of something that fundamentally bypasses ATF's. Also thanks for this acronyms I've been typing the whole word over again like an idiot.

As for the Spear's role in Instrumentality, this requires diving into convoluted subjects like just what exactly the Tree of Life is. Last time I wrote about this, I arrived at the possibility that the Spear is an agent of metaphysical change and manipulation. But trying to summarize this is rather difficult; here's the thread if you are inclined to torture yourself:

thread/18548/An-Ark-a-Tree-and-a-Big-Red-Room-Eva-Cosmology/


I shall go and torture myself with all haste, thanks. Why didn't I discover this forum year ago?

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Re: How does the Lance Of Longinus work exactly?

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Postby Reichu » Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:39 pm

Well, Psyfo, I must say that you've gotten my gears turning. I don't recall the Spear-AATF connection ever having been suggested here before, even though, in retrospect, it does seem kind of obvious! I've been going over it in my head, trying to think of what could either (A) support it or (B) negate it. It's odd, being back on uneven footing, working through all of my theoretical models from scratch again. Discussion has been so stagnant that it's weird and invigorating to feel that sense of being challenged again.

View Original PostPsyfo wrote:With the inverted AT Field it's more a case of one entity reversing the qualities of a another field in order for the combined fields to cancel. In a kind of you go up I go down or you go hot I go cold way. This would be the suppresant abilities from Evas and Angels you mentioned when they battle each other.

I'm not sure if this was your intent, but the process you describe here brought to mind Instrumentality for me. Multiple souls complementing each others' strengths and weaknesses, in order to become something greater. This coming together of souls is something longed for outside of HIP, of course, but in such cases it requires the souls in question to either drop their defenses or have them breached forcefully. The Eva/Angel battles, with the ATF represented as a physical barrier, are setting the stage for the more metaphysical explorations of the ATF, using easily understood metaphor. We might expect similar mechanics to be in play throughout. Just thinking out loud here...

This is think I agree with the AATF being a specialized ATF since Adams AATF during second impact was design to wipe out Lilith-based life. It's however that nullification that makes me think of something that fundamentally bypasses ATF's.

The AATFs generated during 3I likewise had the goal of annihilating individual physical forms. That they would overwhelm ATFs is by design, but note that in all cases we've seen, only "lower energy" organisms -- namely, Lilin and other descendants of Lilith -- are affected. Seeds, Evas, and Angels seem to be immune.

- Adam is destroyed not by the AATF, but by her S^2 engine going out of control.
- The Angel eggs that must have originated from the White Moon at 2I were left intact, including that of the part-Lilin Tabris.
- Eva-01 and the Eva Series initiate the AATF's generation.
-- Eva-01 remains alive and well into the unknown future. ("Petrifies" for unknown reasons after Shinji jettisons, but is mostly purple again when we see her leaving the solar system.)
-- Eva Series remain intact even after killing themselves. (AATF in EoE does affect Lilin corpses.) Only "petrify" after Eva-01 causes this to happen with the Spear.
- Lilith takes over the Anti A.T. Field. Her neck breaking open before HIP actually ends could be taken as evidence that she is succumbing to the AATF's effects, but this isn't the only explanation.

This makes sense: it's the Seeds/Evas that project the AATF, and if it affected them, they wouldn't be able to do their job very job. Since we know the Spear of Longinus is more powerful than Seeds/Evas, we can thereby deduce that the AATF is not on the same level. In order to achieve the results we see, would the Spear of Longinus necessarily need to be involved, either? The ATF of a Seed or Eva is clearly more powerful than that of a Lilin. It's implied in NGE's Classified Information that at least part of the reason for this is that the souls within (which are no different from the souls inside Lilin) have their egos "magnified" by their jumbo-sized bodies. Seele seem to believe that nine Evas together can generate a field sufficiently vast for their needs (though they would have preferred twelve), and if they aren't wrong Lilith after her two expansions is certainly more than "magnified" enough to overwhelm three billion Lilin souls.

I wonder if an AATF would even be possible if the Spear were involved in the way you're suggesting. The Spear's field-nullifying powers are always, from what I can recall, invoked against a being, never for a being's benefit. Supplementing a Seed's field with its own power would seem to go against the Spear's MO.

If you find the linked thread too dense, I can try to point you to the part discussing the Tree of Life specifically. I didn't want to do this immediately because it's a rather train-of-thought sort of thread and builds upon a lot of obscure concepts the whole way. The posts that sidetrack into Seed physiques and cores are skippable, though.
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Re: How does the Lance Of Longinus work exactly?

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Postby Psyfo » Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:02 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Well, Psyfo, I must say that you've gotten my gears turning. I don't recall the Spear-AATF connection ever having been suggested here before, even though, in retrospect, it does seem kind of obvious! I've been going over it in my head, trying to think of what could either (A) support it or (B) negate it. It's odd, being back on uneven footing, working through all of my theoretical models from scratch again. Discussion has been so stagnant that it's weird and invigorating to feel that sense of being challenged again.


Pleasure, indeed I too lament not being here when activity was high. My friends only saw a mecha but I considered it so much more. It actually falls outside typical mecha for me and for the people here clearly.

I'm not sure if this was your intent, but the process you describe here brought to mind Instrumentality for me. Multiple souls complementing each others' strengths and weaknesses, in order to become something greater. This coming together of souls is something longed for outside of HIP, of course, but in such cases it requires the souls in question to either drop their defenses or have them breached forcefully. The Eva/Angel battles, with the ATF represented as a physical barrier, are setting the stage for the more metaphysical explorations of the ATF, using easily understood metaphor. We might expect similar mechanics to be in play throughout. Just thinking out loud here...


Hmm. I was wondering where those souls would be housed during HIP. When souls are not within physical bodies, I always assumed they automatically returned to the chamber of guf which seems to be the limbo/waiting area for disembodied souls without ego. Also the nature of the way they are housed. Are they just housed together as individual souls within a collective or do they come together to create one metaphysical mass/identity? I would assume the former since individuals had the choice to opt out, or was it just Shinji that allowed them the choice?

The AATFs generated during 3I likewise had the goal of annihilating individual physical forms. That they would overwhelm ATFs is by design, but note that in all cases we've seen, only "lower energy" organisms -- namely, Lilin and other descendants of Lilith -- are affected. Seeds, Evas, and Angels seem to be immune.

- Adam is destroyed not by the AATF, but by her S^2 engine going out of control.
- The Angel eggs that must have originated from the White Moon at 2I were left intact, including that of the part-Lilin Tabris.
- Eva-01 and the Eva Series initiate the AATF's generation.
-- Eva-01 remains alive and well into the unknown future. ("Petrifies" for unknown reasons after Shinji jettisons, but is mostly purple again when we see her leaving the solar system.)
-- Eva Series remain intact even after killing themselves. (AATF in EoE does affect Lilin corpses.) Only "petrify" after Eva-01 causes this to happen with the Spear.
- Lilith takes over the Anti A.T. Field. Her neck breaking open before HIP actually ends could be taken as evidence that she is succumbing to the AATF's effects, but this isn't the only explanation.

This makes sense: it's the Seeds/Evas that project the AATF, and if it affected them, they wouldn't be able to do their job very job. Since we know the Spear of Longinus is more powerful than Seeds/Evas, we can thereby deduce that the AATF is not on the same level. In order to achieve the results we see, would the Spear of Longinus necessarily need to be involved, either? The ATF of a Seed or Eva is clearly more powerful than that of a Lilin. It's implied in NGE's Classified Information that at least part of the reason for this is that the souls within (which are no different from the souls inside Lilin) have their egos "magnified" by their jumbo-sized bodies. Seele seem to believe that nine Evas together can generate a field sufficiently vast for their needs (though they would have preferred twelve), and if they aren't wrong Lilith after her two expansions is certainly more than "magnified" enough to overwhelm three billion Lilin souls.

I wonder if an AATF would even be possible if the Spear were involved in the way you're suggesting. The Spear's field-nullifying powers are always, from what I can recall, invoked against a being, never for a being's benefit. Supplementing a Seed's field with its own power would seem to go against the Spear's MO.

If you find the linked thread too dense, I can try to point you to the part discussing the Tree of Life specifically. I didn't want to do this immediately because it's a rather train-of-thought sort of thread and builds upon a lot of obscure concepts the whole way. The posts that sidetrack into Seed physiques and cores are skippable, though.


Okay I'm now sold on the idea that the Seeds generated their own AATF. Since Adam did so during his awakening in 2I. However it still begs the question, aside from controlling the seeds and being used as a last resort to destroy an angel, which we know of already, what was the purpose of the spears in HIP then?

On a side note, in terms of Adam's S2 engine going out of control and 2I, perhaps that is how Adam was always intended to create a world conducive to Adam type life? Lilith leaked LCL and fertilized the planet in a fashion more gentle and conducive to providing just our type of FoK life. Perhaps Adam as a creature of FoL type didn't need such a gentle introduction for his immensely powerful progeny and part of 2I (beside eliminating Lilith life) is a natural Adam type birth? Also I've seen some sources say the angel embryos came from the white moon. To be honest I've always thought Adam herself expelled the embryos much akin to giving birth. Adam and Lilith, possess the chambers of guf (or at least the keys to them) that contain souls of a particular type so why wouldn't they also contain the bodies (or the basis for the organic life from which the bodies derive in Lilith's case) to give birth to? It would provide a basis for Adam being able to give birth to more angels, I don't the angels we've seen are the only angels there ever could have been without Adam potentially giving birth to more. Also if the embryos/eggs were already present on the white moon with Adam then there is little point for a seed isn't it? Lilith has relevance in that she literally gave birth to life as the Lilin know it. Adam should do so as well by directly giving birth to angelic life imo.
The fact that Adam exploded so powerfully also seems to align with the relatively widespread distribution of the embryos, some even ending up as far as orbit for example.


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