EGF: Has It Changed? How? [split]

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Re: EGF: Has It Changed? How? [split]

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Postby Glor » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:18 pm

View Original PostTankred wrote:what I mean to say is dogpiling your opponents with half of the forum is an unwarranted gesture


This is pretty basic courtesy, the disregard for which was probably the most obnoxious part of the SD forum. An unpopular opinion would be posited and then five or six people would throw their two cents at this one user. No one wants to have six arguments at once. So a majority of the forum managed to kill any discussion there all on their own.
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Re: EGF: Has It Changed? How? [split]

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Postby Reichu » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:19 pm

If someone says something that you disagree with, you should, in principle, be able to voice your disagreement. The question to ask yourself first is not, IMO, "how many people have already responded to this person?", but "have any of them already made the same point(s) that I intend to make?" If your post would not actually add anything new (and, no, variations upon "QFT" and "+1" do not qualify), then, yes, it would be better to abstain. If, on the other hand, no one has gone where you intend to go? I can't think of a good reason why a novel voice should be suppressed, especially as this helps defy the notion that a body of disagreement is some sort of monolithic tribal entity.
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Re: EGF: Has It Changed? How? [split]

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:39 pm

Yes, if someone says something you disagree with, then yes you should voice your opinion. Having a logical and calm discussion is the best way to go.

However, when it's the same people always going after those with the opposing opinions, and they build off of each other's arguments and respond one after the other in sequence, in what some could consider ganging up on one person who may or may not be trying to voice thier own opinion in a constructive manner, then it appears as Glor said, the forum collapsing on top of one person's opinion.

One could even go so far to say that the ganging up tactics caused several people to go off the rails and end up getting banned whether temporarily or permanently, at least IMO.
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Re: EGF: Has It Changed? How? [split]

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Postby NemZ » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:11 pm

Yes, it was very frustrating.

That said, at this point complaining about it is rather moot. Or at least, there's no point in doing it here rather than at SD's new home, if you feel so inclined to follow it.

I feel no such compulsion.
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Re: EGF: Has It Changed? How? [split]

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Postby Reichu » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:15 pm

An equally valid reading is that many of those with unpopular opinions persisted in repeatedly expressing them, while showing little to no proclivity toward engaging in discussion, whether it be to a single respondent or to a dogpile of them. One with strong convictions can hardly be blamed for attempting damage control, especially given the current climate of ignorance and misinformation.

A full consideration of all players is required in order to reflect properly and fairly on what went wrong. You can't balance an equation by looking only at one side.

Nor can misbehavior be corrected by pointing the finger somewhere else. Nobody MADE anyone go off the rails. Showing responsibility for one's own actions is a prerequisite for expecting anyone else to do the same.

Not sure what bans you're talking about. Hard to address anything in a meaningful way when there are no specifics.
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Re: EGF: Has It Changed? How? [split]

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:04 am

NemZ wrote:Yes, it was very frustrating.

That said, at this point complaining about it is rather moot. Or at least, there's no point in doing it here rather than at SD's new home, if you feel so inclined to follow it.

I feel no such compulsion.

Oh, I was just making the point, not to complain mind you, but to say what was being beaten around the proverbial bush. But you're right, the point is moot, as SD is gone forevermore.

Also, I agree, there really isn't a need to go onto an entirely new forum just to talk SD. I did that here out of convenience more than anything else. An entirely new site with another login/password combo to remember just to talk SD is not really my thing. I came here for NGE and found a lot more good stuff to chat about.

Reichu wrote:Not sure what bans you're talking about. Hard to address anything in a meaningful way when there are no specifics.
Reichu, I was being vague on purpose. Whatever is interpreted from the statement I made is up to the reader's own mind to decide, not me. I was simply stating a person opinion, as I noted.

I was not pointing fingers at anyone specifically. What I said was that the dogpile tactics were not the best way to handle a discussion. and that
DarkBluePhoenix wrote:Having a logical and calm discussion is the best way to go.

I also never said they made them to go off the rails, just that the situation itself could have caused that to happen. I also said this
DarkBluePhoenix wrote:in what some could consider ganging up on one person who may or may not be trying to voice thier own opinion in a constructive manner
it happened to those both trying to have a meaningful discussion, and those that wished to not have a meaningful discussion. The problem was that no distinction is made between them, and as I recall, several people posted loads of evidence on both sides of said equation, and yet no one could meet in the middle on anything more than bits and pieces of neutral information.

Also, I was specifically talking about the dogpile tactics as several other have done. As for looking at both sides, whether the person had something meaningful to say or not, if they had an opposing opinion, it was piled onto for what looks like the sake of opposing it rather than any meaningful discussion that could be had from the opposing viewpoints. In essence, silencing the opposing opinion to clear out the echo chamber of any dissention.

This is my own opinion of course, and I know not everyone will agree with it, because that is how life is. If everyone had the same ideology, or thought and reacted to things exactly the same as everyone else around them, then life would be boring, there would be no discussion, because there would not be a need for them as everyone thinks alike. Thankfully, that sad world is not the one we live in. We live in a world of wide ranging, grey areas where discussion leads to understanding.
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Re: EGF: Has It Changed? How? [split]

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Postby Reichu » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:30 am

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:Reichu, I was being vague on purpose. Whatever is interpreted from the statement I made is up to the reader's own mind to decide, not me. I was simply stating a person opinion, as I noted.

This seems inherently self-contradictory. If you are stating a personal opinion, you can't be so vague (especially on purpose?!) that others are forced to fill in the blanks from their own psyche. This is not only impersonal, but disingenuous.

Another important consideration is that this place is full of ASD individuals. We autists are terrible at dealing with vagueness. Interpersonal communication is an ordeal even when it's perfectly direct, so imagine how much overclocking and system failure happens when it isn't. To be honest, I'm not sure how talking around whatever is being talked about is a useful rhetorical tactic even for non-ASDs, at least if there is a genuine interest in communication that trumps fear of self-incrimination.
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Re: EGF: Has It Changed? How? [split]

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:57 am

Reichu wrote:This seems inherently self-contradictory. If you are stating a personal opinion, you can't be so vague (especially on purpose?!) that others are forced to fill in the blanks from their own psyche. This is not only impersonal, but disingenuous.

A forum on the internet is the very definition of impersonal, as there is no actual human-to-human contact. I can easily state an opinion of mine and be vague simultaneously. It's just something I do, and the few friends I have don't really seem to mind it.

As for forcing others to fill in the blanks, its called letting them draw thier own conclusions based on thei own experiences. It also opens a door for a discussion if one must be had. I don't personally see it as disingenuous, but then again, I'm biased to my own proclivities.

Reichu wrote:Another important consideration is that this place is full of ASD individuals. We autists are terrible at dealing with vagueness. Interpersonal communication is an ordeal even when it's perfectly direct, so imagine how much overclocking and system failure happens when it isn't. To be honest, I'm not sure how talking around whatever is being talked about is a useful rhetorical tactic even for non-ASDs, at least if there is a genuine interest in communicating something useful that trumps fear of "self-incrimination".

The internet is not truly "interpersonal" it is just a sea of 1's and 0's where a lot of the nuance in speech is lost to the googleplex of words posted on websites around the web (save for YouTube). Sarcasm and faint innuendo and suggestion are lost without voice inflections or even body language. I view true interpersonal communication as a face to face conversation, with no technology in the way of the communication. As technology has evolved, the definition evolved with it, but took away some of what it meant originally.

As for any considerations, I treat everyone the same, and do not work under any assumptions when I speak (or in this case type) about anyone's abilities or lack thereof. I find that doing so would be rude (IMO) to anyone with ASD.

As was explained to me by someone with ASD I hung around in college, he hated when people would dumb stuff down for him, as it made him feel stupid, which he was not. So from that conversation, speaking the way I do never annoyed him, as I spoke the way I would speak to anyone.

Anything anyone says can be interpreted differently by anyone, ASD or not, which is simply human nature. The way we've experienced things in our lives is how we interpret the world around us. And personally, I speak the way I speak because it is how I speak. Nothing will change that, save for a traumatic head injury.
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Re: EGF: Has It Changed? How? [split]

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:52 pm

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:A forum on the internet is the very definition of impersonal, as there is no actual human-to-human contact. I can easily state an opinion of mine and be vague simultaneously. It's just something I do, and the few friends I have don't really seem to mind it.

As for forcing others to fill in the blanks, its called letting them draw thier own conclusions based on thei own experiences. It also opens a door for a discussion if one must be had. I don't personally see it as disingenuous, but then again, I'm biased to my own proclivities.


One of the advantages of speaking via a Forum is for one to be as specific and detailed as possible in their replies, thus ensuring that their exact ideas and arguments are spelled out. This is essential to good discussion and good debate. Being vague is a good way to rabble-rouse: it leads to frustration, misunderstandings, half-understood thoughts, and the sense of being a provocateur without purpose. There's really no reason to be vague when one has the time to craft a response.
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