Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Director Black » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:44 pm

It's been almost a year since I binge-watched the trilogy. I remember being excited when watching it (When I was still thinking about Eva 24 hours straight)...I look back on it now and see them as descent-to-mediocre ways of retelling the story of Eva. I was aware that it wasn't going to top the original - nothing can - but it was still a descent watch (I can go without Mari though)
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:22 am

My only real complaint about NTE is any incarnation of Eva Jo. (1.0, 1.01, 1.11). The movie has some structural editing issues that are very uncanny for Anno. It mostly stems from the filmmakers not adapting the TV series enough into its own new movie. The film cuts between entire scenes and does include any of the visual connective tissue from the TV series to make the cuts feel natural to the story being told. (For example, the movie shows Misato on a plane inspecting the damage from the first angel battle, then immediately cuts to Misato meeting Shinji in a building. There's no sense of her moving from one set piece to the next in this edit, so her sudden appearance in the new location feels a bit weird.) Eva Jo doesn't have any real sense of direction in its editing until the scene where Shinji meets Rei in her apartment. Everything from that point on has a far better sense of editing structure to it than the first half of the film did.

By the time Eva Ha rolls around, the filmmakers seemed confident enough in their changes to adapt enough of the work to be edited as its own original movie, and the pacing of the film and the flow of the editing is much better as a result. And the narrative changes are engaging to new viewers and jaw-dropping surprises to the older Eva audience. (Think back and remember the first time you saw Rei get eaten by the 10th Angel. Even if you're not a Rei fan, the bottom most likely fell out of your stomach when that happened.)

Eva Q shows Anno returning to his greatest strengths as a filmmaker. The film is unflinching in its presentation and brazen in its narrative purpose. And we can discuss Mari's purpose in the narrative until we're blue in the face (we already have and I still feel comfortable with my conclusions about her purpose within the new canon), but it should be obvious to everyone that she's there more or less as a form of therapy for Hideaki Anno himself. Anno has said before that he has no real control over how that character behaves in the scenes written for her, as Mari is an creation by his colleagues that Anno allowed in his movies. Especially by Eva Q, Mari shows herself as providing a different perspective on Anno's "Eva-verse" and his self-insert character, Shinji Ikari. I see Mari as presenting "Anno in the minds of his colleagues," very much in the same spirit of the concept of "Shinji in the minds of others" in Episodes 25 and 26 of NGE. Anno doesn't like himself, and expresses that through Shinji's self-loathing and Eva's world-building. Anno's crew seems very supportive of him, and seems to express that through Mari's playful and fascinated demeanor within Anno's work.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby misatoboi » Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:28 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiYnKvUbdnA&t=80s

me and my bud discuss how we feel about rebuild 3.33 in this post-digibro vlog-cast, please check it out! we don't like many aspects of it but we give it a fair chance and still like aspects

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby robersora » Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:48 am

^
It's been taken down by a Copyright claim of Khara. Khara is a real bitch, when it comes to copyright. Better don't use any visuals they own.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Guy Nacks » Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:50 am

Something I keep coming back to whenever stuff like that happens with Khara is whether the Diacon shorts would have been considered fair use.

ELO certainly could have torn them a new asshole if they wanted to, but I wonder about all the copyrighted imagery, characters, etc.


Shit seems hypocuntical to me, if you get my drift.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:24 am

Well, the review has (had - but I kept a copy) a good 20 minutes of Q footage; that's a considerably higher proportion than is usually seriously claimed as OK under "fair use" provisions (which are infuriatingly undefined, and not even explicit in some jurisdictions).
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:35 am

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:Something I keep coming back to whenever stuff like that happens with Khara is whether the Diacon shorts would have been considered fair use.

ELO certainly could have torn them a new asshole if they wanted to, but I wonder about all the copyrighted imagery, characters, etc.


Shit seems hypocuntical to me, if you get my drift.

That's probably why neither Khara, Gainax, nor Daicon sell them anymore.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby robersora » Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:09 am

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:Something I keep coming back to whenever stuff like that happens with Khara is whether the Diacon shorts would have been considered fair use.

ELO certainly could have torn them a new asshole if they wanted to, but I wonder about all the copyrighted imagery, characters, etc.


Shit seems hypocuntical to me, if you get my drift.


There was an interview, that I can't find now, where an animator mused that nobody knows who animation belongs to, considering there are multiple people involved, animating the intellectual property of a character designer. So if they are unsure about who belongs what in cases in which everything is basically created for a series, we shouldn't even start asking who Daicon belongs to. Copyright is a cluster fuck. And if Khara chooses do protect their rights violently it might be hypocritical, considering the roots they are coming from, but it is their right to do so.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:11 am

View Original Postrobersora wrote:There was an interview, that I can't find now, where an animator mused that nobody knows who animation belongs to, considering there are multiple people involved, animating the intellectual property of a character designer. So if they are unsure about who belongs what in cases in which everything is basically created for a series, we shouldn't even start asking who Daicon belongs to. Copyright is a cluster fuck. And if Khara chooses do protect their rights violently it might be hypocritical, considering the roots they are coming from, but it is their right to do so.


And if they don't they won't have a leg to stand on when real theft occurs.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Squigsquasher » Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:51 am

I don't mind Rebuild. I definitely prefer the TV series, but Rebuild isn't bad.

I suppose most of my complaints with Rebuild are entirely aesthetic. NGE had ridiculously appealing character designs, whilst Khara's take on the Eva characters seems...off, somehow. Maybe it's the translation to new technology/digital inking, but somehow they seem to have lost that truly loveable look they had in ink-on-cel form. Also POINTY CHINS. I don't particularly like the Rebuild Evas either- there's elements I like, notably the colours, but the more humanoid proportions loses a little bit of the true...monstrousness they had in the original. The puny shoulder pylons don't help either.

On the plus side, it did give us Britty Titty Kitty Mari and her two awesome Eva units, so that's something.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Apox » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:39 am

I feel like if 3.33 was the first in a trilogy of movies instead of the 2nd to last I would have a whole lot less issues with the rebuilds. I didn't like the fact that 1.11 was basically just a hd remake of the first 6 episodes, and I cringed at a lot of the shenanigans in 2.22. I mean that whole "learning to cook for Shinji to show who likes him more" skit was so hokey and NOT evangelion (hell even one of the artists on the movie thought that it "wasn;t evangelion"). The series didn't need "beast mode", feel like it was thrown in to sell more models and appease the mainstream anime goofballs.

However, 3.33 does have a lot of redeeming qualities. Things like the setting, the narrative shift and possible world building.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:08 pm

View Original PostSquigsquasher wrote:I suppose most of my complaints with Rebuild are entirely aesthetic. NGE had ridiculously appealing character designs, whilst Khara's take on the Eva characters seems...off, somehow.

That's weird, because the characters' appearances in NGE keep changing slightly from episode to episode, mostly because of Gainax outsourcing character animation to different studios. Episode 6 and 10 look a little different especially. If anything I find the consistency of NTE's character appearances refreshing and delightful.

But, if pressed, I'd have to admit that the character appearances in the latter episodes of NGE are my favorite. And it takes a lot for me to admit that there are better production drawings of Asuka that don't involve either her pink tank top and white skirt from Eva Ha, or her eyepatch from Eva Q.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Geometer » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:09 pm

View Original PostApox wrote:I feel like if 3.33 was the first in a trilogy of movies instead of the 2nd to last I would have a whole lot less issues with the rebuilds. I didn't like the fact that 1.11 was basically just a hd remake of the first 6 episodes, and I cringed at a lot of the shenanigans in 2.22. I mean that whole "learning to cook for Shinji to show who likes him more" skit was so hokey and NOT evangelion (hell even one of the artists on the movie thought that it "wasn;t evangelion"). The series didn't need "beast mode", feel like it was thrown in to sell more models and appease the mainstream anime goofballs.

However, 3.33 does have a lot of redeeming qualities. Things like the setting, the narrative shift and possible world building.


I think 2.22 did that intentionally to make the bite of 3.33 seem all the more painful. I don't necessarily think it was a good idea, it wasted time that could have been better spent elsewhere, but I am almost certain that Anno and his team were classy enough to keep eva from being a generic haremshit anime.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Guy Nacks » Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:00 pm

Another massive and prolific (on the internet, anyway) NGE fan has finally gotten around to seeing Q.

SPOILER: Show

SPOILER: Show
He rated it 2/10 on MAL, which is pretty unforgiving. I didn't like Q either, but I don't think I would have given it that bad of a score. My rating would have probably been somewhere around 4/10 if I had an account. Hopefully, he'll make an in-depth analysis video like his work on SAO and The Asterisk War.
Among the people who use the Internet, many are obtuse. Because they are locked in their rooms, they hang on to that vision which is spreading across the world. But this does not go beyond mere ‘data’. Data without analysis [thinking], which makes you think that you know everything. This complacency is nothing but a trap. Moreover, the sense of values that counters this notion is paralyzed by it.

And so we arrive at demagogy. - Hideaki Anno, 1996

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:17 pm

Who is this guy and why should I care if he makes a pithy remark on Twitter about a daring work of art being dogshit?
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Guy Nacks » Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:30 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Who is this guy and why should I care if he makes a pithy remark on Twitter about a daring work of art being dogshit?


He's a prolific (somewhere around 300,000 subscribers) anime analyst who's made some rather lengthy, well-detailed videos on a variety of anime and other topics.
Among the people who use the Internet, many are obtuse. Because they are locked in their rooms, they hang on to that vision which is spreading across the world. But this does not go beyond mere ‘data’. Data without analysis [thinking], which makes you think that you know everything. This complacency is nothing but a trap. Moreover, the sense of values that counters this notion is paralyzed by it.

And so we arrive at demagogy. - Hideaki Anno, 1996

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:46 pm

I can see why someone would want to share a specific analysis he's done (though I personally don't have the patience for YouTube video essays) -- but an unqualified opinion? You can't debate that, so it really doesn't belong here. If Digibro personally participated in the thread, that would be another matter.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:13 am

Some guy didn't like a movie. Big whoop.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:14 am

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:Another massive and prolific (on the internet, anyway) NGE fan has finally gotten around to seeing Q.

SPOILER: Show

SPOILER: Show
He rated it 2/10 on MAL, which is pretty unforgiving. I didn't like Q either, but I don't think I would have given it that bad of a score. My rating would have probably been somewhere around 4/10 if I had an account. Hopefully, he'll make an in-depth analysis video like his work on SAO and The Asterisk War.


It's nice to have a handy reference at hand for when I wonder if I should ignore him in the future.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:33 am

........really don't understand how 3.33 is "dogshit."

Like, how is it poorly made? I believe it was Digibro who has a small series of videos about the original NGE and how it had some solid directorial techniques in them film. Those techniques are still present in Eva Q, so I'm not seeing where this drop in quality is coming from. Sure, one could argue that the story isn't well told, but there's little evidence of that being true either. (Shinji's story is very well told, so much so that many people distance themselves from NTE because they don't like feeling bad for Shinji.) The only real argument that stands is that Eva Q tells a story that people don't like.

But then, this is from a guy who will defend that zombies-on-a-train TV series as "a stunning visual art book" or whatever, and doesn't even attempt to defend it based on any aspect of its filmmaking. So I don't think that Filmmaking 101 is his base assumption when reviewing this kind of media. His standards are clearly elsewhere. I can easily see his video essay on it now repeating the exaggerated phrase "fall from grace," or some other form of nonsense as he tries to compare it to NGE. Let's say NGE is an impressive 9/10, and NTE hovers at around a 6/10 or 7/10. But since he came in expecting a 9/10 at least, but got a 6/10-ish, he gets upset that his expectations were not met and starts comparing by association in rank to godawful Adam Sandler movies or cheap Seth MacFarlane animations with pretentious titles.

Oh well. Whatever.


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