Stillborn wrote:That's the problem I have with this movie. Everyone makes mistakes but only Shinji is held accounatble and blamed.

Who is Wille shooting at again? Oh yeah, Gendo.

Wille was created soley to make Nerv accountable for their actions. Sure, Shinji needs to be kept in check, but Nerv is the main goal.

Plus Nerv was on the business end of some military action in the past. Wille knows Seele and Gendo are the true culprits and Misato is hellbent to destroy them.

CyberXIII wrote:Kaworu probably was being fed a line of bullshit and didn't realize it until it was too late. Again, what benefit does he get from lying to Shinji? He needs Shinji to trust him and explicitly does not want to cause 4th Impact. Now some people would take this too far in the other direction and claim he was in love with Shinji (developer commentary does not help here) but he clearly is more worried about Shinji than, say, Misato or Asuka.

Basically what Sachi said. Kaworu and Seele both thought everything was going according to plan until it was too late. Seele didn't even realize Gendo had played them for fools before he eliminated them and by the time Kaworu caught on to what was happening, Shinji was too desperate to pull back.

Bagheera wrote:Who is Wille shooting at again? Oh yeah, Gendo.

Well... From what we were shown, guns were pointed at Shinji, bomb collar placed on him, and all the forces of Wille were gunning for him once he shown up in Eva 13, and they got nowhere near Gendo. :P

So yes, while realistically Nerv and Gendo are mankinds enemy, Shinji is the one the narrative points the condemning finger at.

The guns and collar were placed on Shinji as a precautionary method as up until a particular point they weren't even completely sure that it was him. Misato asks during the cell sequence whether or not they are sure it is definitely Shinji and it isn't long after that is confirmed that the Wunder is attacked by Rei. There is no opportunity for them to have proper dialogue or for the collar to be removed.

As for the other point, of course they were gunning for him when he was in Evangelion Unit 13. He was about to do a very stupid thing and actually trigger the Fourth Impact. They had to stop him.

The narrative is blurred as to who is actually to blame. Kaworu does the bulk of putting the blame on Shinji but it's fairly cryptic. Misato/Ritsuko never actually blame him for it. Asuka mentions that Shinji has triggered one Impact and is about to trigger another but we don't exactly how much she does/doesn't know at that point.

I never said that thay didn't had a good reason to assault him when he piloted 13. I just pointed out that all their efforts were focused on him and nowhere near Gendo :P

Precautions such as bomb collar are explained by the bloody movie and entirely logical for reasons explained ad infinitum. No one is in any position to claim similar precautions weren't first taken with Asuka and Mari, either. Remember that information myopia I talked about...?

Wille targeted Eva-13 long before they knew Shinji was inside it. Because why? Because it was a never before seen type of Eva that could only have been deployed by ... guess who. Asuka is surprised to find Shinji piloting the damn thing but he made a (bad) choice and she has a job to do. Stop Gendo's "executor", stop whatever shit he's planning. One can wonder why Wille waits for Gendo to make a move before they do, but targeting 13 had nothing to do with a perceived anti-Shinji narrative and everything to do with not letting the Big Bad have his way.

Come on, Stillborn. You're not even trying anymore.

Stillborn wrote:I never said that thay didn't had a good reason to assault him when he piloted 13. I just pointed out that all their efforts were focused on him and nowhere near Gendo

That was simply dealing with the immediate threat, which was indeed one of Gendou's moves in any case.

Reichu wrote:One can wonder why Wille waits for Gendo to make a move before they do,

Because they didn't previously have adequate power for the Wunder to undertake such a move; and once they have (in the form of Unit-01) presumably they were preparing when Eva 13 appeared (which they were indeed monitoring for in some way).

Reichu wrote:Come on, Stillborn. You're not even trying anymore.

You can tell, huh? Well it's not worth trying anymore. And I can't explain and convey the complexicity the way it's tangled in my head.

Stillborn wrote:You can tell, huh? Well it's not worth trying anymore. And I can't explain and convey the complexicity the way it's tangled in my head.

It's not really complex, though. Gendo's the enemy, and Shinji went and agreed to work for him even though everyone he knew told him not to get into the freakin' robot. Shinji's not a scapegoat at that point, just a confused idiot working for the bad guy. Claiming he's the only one held accountable for his actions just isn't true.

Bagheera wrote:It's not really complex, though. Gendo's the enemy, and Shinji went and agreed to work for him even though everyone he knew told him not to get into the freakin' robot.

Incomprehensible lookalikes of everyone he knew. From his perspective it's quite a difference.

Stop moving the goal posts, please.

Huh? I didn't noticed I moved something. I just answer what I can. But whatever. I'll just get stressed more if I keep this up. I shouldn't even got involved. Everyone's opinions are already set.

I used the wrong term to describe what you're doing, so my bad there. I was pointing out how you abruptly shifted focus from your whole "Everyone makes mistakes but only Shinji is held accounatble and blame" tract. Multiple debunks were provided, and rather than respond in a way that indicates you're interested in an evidence-based exchange of ideas, you ultimately resort to dangling an only tangentially related assumption you probably know from experience will get bites. Naturally, if you keep people busy chasing after an endless string of diversions, you won't be forced to actually defend your own position (as by debunking the arguments others have made) in any appreciable way. You're not really in any position to complain about the rigidity of others when your own participation is so one-sided.

Anyway, topic...

Is that so... Sorry then. I have tropuble keeping track of my own toughts and directions they follow. But yes, I'm done derailing.

Reichu wrote:One can wonder why Wille waits for Gendo to make a move before they do

Yeah, this is a big issue. Nerv is practically wide open, they have at least a match for them in terms of evas, and can apparently enter their airspace with impunity now so really what the hell were they waiting for? What's more, why do they just leave at the end when all the evas and angels are out of the picture? None of this makes any damn sense.

What are they supposed to do at that point? There's no one left to attack.

Bagheera wrote:What are they supposed to do at that point? There's no one left to attack.

Well they could level the place and kill the mastermind and his man servant, I mean, they are literally right above the hole where NERV HQ is... seems like a missed opportunity, or a colossal fuck up on Misato's part which goes back to everyone's focus seems to be on Shinji instead of the real culprits here, Gendo, NERV and SEELE. But she is blinded by that Shinji hate, and doesn't see NERV as a threat without an EVA, which logic dictates that at this point leaving the enemy intact while they are defenseless is the dumbest thing ever.

Yes, yes, Shinji fucked up big time pulling out those Spears when he did, but so far in 3.33 he's just had a whole bunch of people tell him nothing of consequence other than don't get in an EVA even though he can no longer pilot an EVA (WILLE) to NERV where dear daddy tells him to get in the giant robot again, fuytuski tells him Rei is a clone of his mommy, Kaworu goes and tells him he caused all this and then he's told that to fix it all we go grab these two pointy bits out from the dead thing in dad's basement, then at the last second Kaworu realizes he's been duped and says "don't" and to be fair, Shinji's been getting fragments of a story since he was brought back, so anything he does without the full picture is going to fuck something up more than it already is.

So really the blame is on everyone around him (including the two adults in kids bodies) for not explaining why he shouldn't do anything and just stay out of the way, but their hate clouds that and all they see is the destroyer of Earth, Shinji Ikari. And Kaworu of course took all that time to convince Shinji this was the right thing to do and can't undo his convincing in time, and boom, another Angel appears and 4I starts.

Shinji may be triggering all his, but the inactions of others are giving him a wide birth to do so.

NemZ wrote:Yeah, this is a big issue. Nerv is practically wide open, they have at least a match for them in terms of evas, and can apparently enter their airspace with impunity now so really what the hell were they waiting for?

The Wunder was a match for the Mk IVs once it had Unit-01 installed, but before that it couldn't even fly! Once they had power, they would doubtless have planned an attack, but the crisis came first.

NemZ wrote:Yeah, this is a big issue. Nerv is practically wide open, they have at least a match for them in terms of evas, and can apparently enter their airspace with impunity now so really what the hell were they waiting for? What's more, why do they just leave at the end when all the evas and angels are out of the picture? None of this makes any damn sense.

I would have thought that Wille, being a fleet made up of only sea-fairing ships and one water-logged AAA Wunder, was limited in their abilities to travel over land to fight Nerv. It's not like they had any land vehicles large enough to transport enough batteries for two whole Evangelion units during an elongated Eva battle between them and Nerv, never mind powering the Evas as they traveled by foot over land however many miles are between the oceans and the Nerv Base. And they only other air vehicles we see in Wille's possession were helicopters, which aren't of the proper size and don't have the adequate power needed to transport Evas by air.

I think this would mean that Wille was water-logged until they could get Unit 01 and its S2 Engine to power the flying features of their AAA Wunder. Being water-logged would mean not being able to attack the land-dwelling Nerv Base until they acquired another mode of transportation. Nerv having more advanced Eva technology that can travel across multiple tundras places them in a position to attack Wille while they're water-logged, placing Wille in a mostly defensive position until they could acquire the S2 Engine-ladened Eva Unit 01. But when they finally captured the S2 Engine, allowing them to travel by air over land, they could finally start planning their attack on the land-dwelling Nerv Base itself, as we saw towards the end of Eva Q after they were able to prove their flying capabilities in a defensive measure for the first time at the start of the film.

Now, how Wille managed to get the Evas to the oceans to begin with is the real aspect of the narrative that doesn't make sense. But it's a minimal complaint, and, out of everything that needs answering in Shin Eva, how Evas were initially transported from land to sea is the least of NTE's concerns. All that matters is that they got to the oceans somehow, and can't go back on land until they've regrouped and rebuilt their technology.