NGE Shinji is Oedipus

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Re: NGE Shinji is Oedipus

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Postby zlink64 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:36 pm

I'd call NGE a tragedy or at least it has elements of the genre. I mean a lot of people had to die just for Shinji to progress. Than Rei whole character is just tragic. And then the whole thing just ending with like choking. A lot of sorrowful shit kinda happens and had to happen on Shinji's journey towards the end.
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Postby Sachi » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:36 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I've never thought of passivity as being a tragic flaw per se

Hamlet. His flaw was spending too much time thinking about the problem rather than directly addressing it until it was too late. It's been a while since I've read it, so I might be hazy on those details.
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Re: NGE Shinji is Oedipus

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:39 pm

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:I mean a lot of people had to die just for Shinji to progress.

Correction. A lot of people were transformed into orange juice only to be given the chance to reform. The only people who supposedly die are Rei and Kaworu, but i wouldn't put their blood on Shinji's hands
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:41 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:Hamlet. His flaw was spending too much time thinking about the problem rather than directly addressing it until it was too late. It's been a while since I've read it, so I might be hazy on those details.


But isn't that more about missing an opportunity than about passivity per se? I can see how it would apply in his relationship with Asuka, but not so much when it comes to his piloting.

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:I'd call NGE a tragedy or at least it has elements of the genre. I mean a lot of people had to die just for Shinji to progress. Than Rei whole character is just tragic. And then the whole thing just ending with like choking. A lot of sorrowful shit kinda happens and had to happen on Shinji's journey towards the end.


"Tragedy" in the academic sense refers to a character who's doomed by his own actions. It doesn't matter if a story is happy or said, it's only tragic if the character himself is the architect of his own undoing.

By contrast, "Pathetic" characters are victims of their circumstances -- terrible things happen to them through no fault of their own, and their struggle to cope of them is the meat of their stories.

In this sense NGE!Shinji is a pathetic character and NTE!Shinji is a tragic character, though of course neither's 100% one or the other.
Last edited by Bagheera on Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NGE Shinji is Oedipus

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Postby zlink64 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:46 pm

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:Correction. A lot of people were transformed into orange juice only to be given the chance to reform. The only people who supposedly die are Rei and Kaworu, but i wouldn't put their blood on Shinji's hands

Can I at least say Asuka lost an eye and was ravaged by giant white evangelions and Misato got shot and blown to smithereens for Shinji to move forward.
Like I'm not holding him person-ably responsible but a lot of death/physical damaged can be tied to his character flaws.
Last edited by zlink64 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: NGE Shinji is Oedipus

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Postby zlink64 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:53 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:

"Tragedy" in the academic sense refers to a character who's doomed by his own actions. It doesn't matter if a story is happy or said, it's only tragic if the character himself is the architect of his own undoing.

By contrast, "Pathetic" characters are victims of their circumstances -- terrible things happen to them through no fault of their own, and their struggle to cope of them is the meat of their stories.

In this sense NGE!Shinji is a pathetic character and NTE!Shinji is a tragic character, though of course neither's 100% one or the other.


Tradegy has a lot of definitions but I'm okay using that one since it's what I meant. For example there's a part of Rei that is mad about not being allowed die...that's like tragic irony. Shinji I would say pretty much causes his own problem. Like a lot of death and violence is tied narratively to his character flaws and it makes him feel like depressed. If it wasn't the story would be less sad and it'd just be a bunch of people fighting with giant robots. Like there are tragedy genre like things in Eva.
Last edited by zlink64 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:10 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Postby Ray » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:55 pm

I think this thread may interest the Original Poster.

thread/15939/No-Happy-Ending-Predestination-In-Rebuild/

Shinji is similar to Oedipus in that they were both doomed from the start, by both unfair circumstances, the will of the gods, and their own hubris. Oedipus's flaw was his temper. Shinji's flaw is his fear, and his pathological desire for love and validation.

Also, I made the comparison of Eva to a Greek tragedy a while ago. . .

Eva is A Greek Tragedy. Shinji is Oedipus, Rei is Jocasta, Gendo is Laius, and the Angels and Seele are the god's controlling everything behind the scenes for their own reasons.

The point of tragedy is to build up a character (or characters) develop them, showcase their positive qualities and their flaws, and then have their flaws and refusal to change said flaw be what ultimately damns them and ruins everything.

The flaw in the characters in Eva is their inability or unwillingness to communicate out of fear of being hurt. Their inability to communicate is what causes more pain for each of them, and what inevitably causes the end of the world. We're to take away from Eva that we should be more open with each other, because the benefits of relationships are worth far more than any pain we could cause each other. True our fears and failings may not cause the end of the world, but refusing to communicate with others out of fear of being hurt will only cause more misery in the end than it will prevent. If they had opened up and talked to each other would it have changed things for the characters? Yes.

But would we the audience have learned anything or been taught a lesson or be discussing it in detail on a forum if that had been the case?

I'm upset Oedipus ended with him impregnating his mom and gouging his eyes out. But would we be discussing his grand tragedy and the nature of free will if it had been a happy ending?

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Postby KingXanaduu » Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:02 pm

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:Can I at least say Asuka lost an eye and was ravaged by giant white evangelions and Misato got shot and blown to smithereens for Shinji to move forward.
Like I'm not holding him personable responsible but a lot of death/physical damaged can be tied to his character flaws.


You could say that. Not directly responsible, but did have a hand in it. "It is through our lowest point that we are open to the greatest amount of change."

Asuka and Misato's death were the final nail on the coffin where Shinji needed to change for the better, and thanks to Third Impact, both Asuka and Misato have a second chance as well, as their character flaws also shaped Shinji as well. Shinji isn't the only one at fault for the tragedies of Evangelion. It was just one big giant universal "Fuck up".
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Re: NGE Shinji is Oedipus

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:29 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:Shinji is similar to Oedipus in that they were both doomed from the start

Oedipus was, Shinji wasn't
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Postby Sachi » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:49 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:But isn't that more about missing an opportunity than about passivity per se? I can see how it would apply in his relationship with Asuka, but no so much when it comes to his piloting.

If the plot makes a point of showcasing Hamlet's passivity through inaction and hesitation, then it truly is his tragic flaw. When he finally does take action, he ends up ruining everything for everybody by leaving Denmark extremely weakened and open to attack from Norway. Claudius had been a better king than Hamlet would have ever been, and it's precisely because of Hamlet's lack of decisiveness.

For Shinji, it's just as you say, and the tragedy with his passiveness isn't so much about piloting as it is with his relationship with others (not simply Asuka). His personal struggle has less to do with the fate of the Evas and 3I, and more to do with his dealings with the people and the world around him; EoTV most certainly prioritized the latter. In this sense, Shinji's struggle is tragic, because his behavior isolates himself from other people, which is the opposite of what he actually wants, and in EoE, he literally damns the world because of his inability to come to terms with himself. What makes it not entirely a tragedy is the fact that he's given a second chance afterward.
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:29 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:For Shinji, it's just as you say, and the tragedy with his passiveness isn't so much about piloting as it is with his relationship with others (not simply Asuka). His personal struggle has less to do with the fate of the Evas and 3I, and more to do with his dealings with the people and the world around him; EoTV most certainly prioritized the latter. In this sense, Shinji's struggle is tragic, because his behavior isolates himself from other people, which is the opposite of what he actually wants, and in EoE, he literally damns the world because of his inability to come to terms with himself. What makes it not entirely a tragedy is the fact that he's given a second chance afterward.


I think there's more to it than that, though. I mean, looking strictly at his relationships with others there's certainly a tragic element running through them, but I think extending that to the plot of EoE is a reach -- it denies the agency of all the other actors who conspired to make this happen (particularly Rei; if she was a mindless automaton and Shinji inadvertently triggered the apocalypse himself it would be a truly tragic twist, but that's not what happened -- instead Rei ended the world on Shinji's behalf, and Shinji reached that state because he was violently rejected by Asuka. That's straight-up pathos by my reading, not tragedy. He didn't take action at the end because there was literally no action he could take that would change matters. But once he was given a choice he chose the path that was best for him and the world, and that is the very antithesis of tragedy -- not because he was given a second chance, but rather because of the choice he made when he was actually given a choice. He was guided by insight, not hubris, and is thus not a tragic character IMO.

NTE!Shinji, by contrast . . . :redeyes:
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Postby Stillborn » Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:58 pm

NTE! Shinji went berserk to save someone he cares about. Not out of spite or petty anger like you seem to suggest with that line.
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Postby Sachi » Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:03 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:NTE! Shinji went berserk to save someone he cares about. Not out of spite or petty anger like you seem to suggest with that line.

I read no such suggestion. Where has spite or anger even been brought up? The point I get out of it is that NTE!Shinji is more obviously tragic, whereas NGE!Shinji's status is a little more debateable.
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Postby KingXanaduu » Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:46 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:I read no such suggestion. Where has spite or anger even been brought up? The point I get out of it is that NTE!Shinji is more obviously tragic, whereas NGE!Shinji's status is a little more debateable.


For NGE!Shinji, that would also depend on the time period of his life that we're talking about, cause if we look it as a whole, it does look like a tragedy up until the end, considering forces beyond his control have been conspiring for 3I years before he was even conceived, and he was just an expendable pawn. An important one, but a pawn nonetheless.
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Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
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Postby Kendrix » Tue May 31, 2016 4:42 am

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:For NGE!Shinji, that would also depend on the time period of his life that we're talking about, cause if we look it as a whole, it does look like a tragedy up until the end, considering forces beyond his control have been conspiring for 3I years before he was even conceived, and he was just an expendable pawn. An important one, but a pawn nonetheless.


This should never be forgotten, especially in Rebuild

That doesn't mean he's not responsible for anything at all because obviously he made decisions, took actions etc. but it does impact what we can expect of him. I mean, there's always room to do better or imagine a better outcome, particularly in hindsight.


Personally I don't think Anno included references in that systemic a way - more to the whole Freudian construct than the original play, kinda borrowing the outermost skelleton of the plot when crafting the setting ("There's gonna be a father/son conflict and also a sort of alien clone with a mysterious connection to his mom' etc.) that has only so much to do with what happened when he ultimately put the characters in action, I mean, he's pretty much the type to go around tweaking/changing/adjustic his plot as he goes along according to what feels right.
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Postby Lavinius » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:41 pm

No he's not, he's obviously Achilles and this is hammered in so many times in so many ways I literally cannot believe that it's coincidental.
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Postby Reichu » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:24 pm

If you're going to bump the thread for that post, the least you could do is explain yourself instead of just saying that something is obvious and leaving it at that.
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Postby Lavinius » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:05 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:If you're going to bump the thread for that post, the least you could do is explain yourself instead of just saying that something is obvious and leaving it at that.

Sorry, it's just that it's rather difficult for me to figure out how to expound it. There are more alignments in acts and motifs than I can count, but none of them is exact, and I fear I'd look foolish ennumerating them without some kind of argumentative structure- but since the reference is non-linear, in and continuous I'm not sure what the best structure is.

But non-exhaustively and amateurishly, (I don't have line numbers on me at the moment, sorry)  SPOILER: Show
A besieged city- but Shinji defends, Achilles assaults. But both roles are inverted when looking closer- the Trojans actually aggressed by seizing Helen, the Lilin by seizing Adam, Lilith, and the planet more generally.
The only warriors of their faction to question the propriety and purpose of their war- Shinji in episode 11, Achilles, mostly, in books I and IX. Neither Asuka nor Rei nor Misato exactly correspond to a Diomedes, Ajax, or Odysseus (though I guess Asuka's a bit of a Telamonian Ajax), but neither ever questions the worthiness of the war itself.
Recurrently become dissatisfied with the honor given to them and refuse to fight.
-And only return to battle by the death of a comrade. But Shinji isn't as implacable as Achilles- he relents to Misato while Achilles is unyielding to Agamemnon, he acccepts the greater justification given by Kaji while Achilles rejects Patroclus's appeals- but after the the death of Kaworu he at last awakens too late to save Asuka, and reaches his lowest point.
Their most important relationship is with another boy, a double, who dies in their place, and it is with his death that they fall into their worst despair. Kaworu is both of Achilles' doubles- Patroclus and Hector- in one!
Then their divine mother comes before them and grants them divine armor and the shield representing all of life with which to carry out their slaughter.
And, of course, they both famously flee to music while sulking.
Edit: Oh, defile the enemy champion's body!
(Then there's the matter of certain lines Achilles and Shinji both utter regarding who should die, who should have died in whose place, who they wish dead- the latter of which both earning great censure from critics here and in Alexandria, but these are too specific to work with without textual citation.)
Gendou is of course both Agamemnon and Odysseus (themselves foils in the Odyssey)- and going further with the Odyssean parallels Rei Helen, and Yui and Ritsuko both Penelope and Clytemenstra (all the women already kin and foils).
Rei is also Helen, again, in her Iliadic role.
The epics already contain parallelism and repetition aplenty, and Eva, consciously or not, goes even further with it.
Another instance is how episode 1 recursively plays with the Iphigeneia/Isaac motif.

But the only real alignment between Shinji and Oedipus that I can see is that they both unknowingly murder kinsmen- Oedipus his father Laius, Shinji his cousins the Angels.
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