Why are we not letting Occam's razor handle this?

Mari told him to go save the princess when everything was going to hell. Immediately after, Asuka gets mad at him for not helping her when everything was going to hell. It was about the aftermath of N4I. There's no reason to delve that deep into this. There's no reason to think Asuka is only now bringing up Bardiel when she could have done that on the Wunder. N4I was the disaster at hand. "Save the princess" most likely just means "Stop curling into a ball and go check on Asuka, whose Eva just exploded."

While I agree that Mari and Asuka's lines are connected in a straightforward manner, I'm not sure why you think Mari having such an expectation of Shinji is a simple explanation. Shinji is someone who has demonstrated his complete lack of reliability, by leaving Wille for a dead girl and then getting suckered into triggering another doomsday. What is it about the circumstances -- still dealing with an Impact that Shinji caused, which he (from a non-omniscient POV) shows no willingness or ability to do anything to stop -- that would make anyone who last interacted with him during that Spear-pulling travesty say, "Hey, you big baby, go help Asuka!"

It's a non sequitur. Mari saying it doesn't make sense; Asuka following up on it with disappointment makes even less sense. Realistically, they should expecting WAAAAAYYYYY less of Shinji than they did before he jumped ship for Neo-Nerv. As we saw at the beginning of the film, Asuka's latent hope that Shinji will do jack shit for her only comes out when she is in mortal danger. At the end of the film, she's fine; he needs her help, while the reverse situation does not even come close to being applicable.

The best I can figure is all this "help" stuff is some kind of weird code language for trying to communicate to Impact-kun that Asuka still carries a torch for him despite having known him so briefly and now being twice his age...

Lennik wrote:There's no reason to think Asuka is only now bringing up Bardiel when she could have done that on the Wunder.

But surely she did, with a vengeance - when Shinji asks after her eye and she punches the glass. Asuka was out of action at N3I, so although she awoke to the devastation that caused, the damage to her goes back to Bardiel - and whatever she may have discovered afterwards, her memory of that will have been of Shinji doing nothing to help - until he mauled her (because at that moment she will have known nothing of the dummy plug either).

pwhodges wrote:But surely she did, with a vengeance - when Shinji asks after her eye and she punches the glass. Asuka was out of action at N3I, so although she awoke to the devastation that caused, the damage to her goes back to Bardiel - and whatever she may have discovered afterwards, her memory of that will have been of Shinji doing nothing to help - until he mauled her (because at that moment she will have known nothing of the dummy plug either).

So that scene implies she's talking about Bardiel after N4I? I don't think so. During N4I Mari tells him to help Asuka. And then in the immediate aftermath of N4I, Asuka chastises him for not helping her. We don't know why Asuka or Mari expected him to be able to do this at the moment, but to suggest that Mari's line and Asuka's aren't in the same context, I think, is absurd. What, they both conveniently criticized him for not helping Asuka, but they were referencing two completely different things? I find that hard to believe.

It's more Eva repetition:


In their very first conversation, Asuka knocks him down and gives him grief for not being there to help her out. This is a sad trend in their relationship throughout the movies. The circumstances aren't always in his control, but he almost never helps her or comes to her rescue. The one time he actually does is at the beginning of 3.0 and he isn't even aware that he did it.

He was visiting his mother's grave when the 7th Angel attacked. The 8th Angel was a team effort that ended with Asuka and Rei coming to his rescue. There was the whole ordeal with the 9th Angel, and then she and Mari had to fight him into submission and rescue him at the end of 3.0. She might not be talking about the 9th Angel specifically when she confronts him at the end of 3.0, but it is the elephant in the room for their relationship, being the big moment where he possibly could have saved her but didn't.

I dunno if it means she does still have a thing for him like Reichu suggested (I certainly hope not!), but I do think it's setting him up for a rescue scene in the next movie that will help him finally get back in her good graces. Hell, maybe it'll flip the End of Evangelion on its head and he actually will show up in time to save her from a dire situation. I like the partnership Asuka and Mari have going on and prefer the Asuka that doesn't need his help because she's a very competent and experienced pilot, but there's some kind of foundation being laid here and I can't see 3.0+1.0 leaving the topic unaddressed.

BB: Nice catch; I clearly need to be paying more attention!

The whole "help/save the Princess" bit unfortunately invokes the image of a damsel in distress, and I wonder why Anno would want to do that with someone as competent as Asuka, as it carries rather demeaning implications. Maybe he's making the juxtaposition for the irony or something? I dunno. Regarding the "foundation being laid" here, I'm going to hope that it's ultimately a commentary on teamwork and fellowship and all that good stuff. Nothing about being "rescued" per se -- just lending people a hand when they need it, knowing that they'd do the same thing for you.

The one time he actually does [help her] is at the beginning of 3.0 and he isn't even aware that he did it.

Why do you think he's the one who did it? As you point out, he has absolutely no recollection of this event, which might imply his participation was as an unconscious "trigger" at best. There's any number of things that could have been going on there.

I dunno if it means she does still have a thing for him like Reichu suggested (I certainly hope not!)

Nor I, though unfortunately the movie is not guiltless of ship-teasing. Something like Mari busting Asuka's chops about Shinji can be explained readily enough as insight into the girls' relationship... but giving Asuka the nickname "Princess", and then having Kaworu call Gendo the "King of Lilin", which makes Shinji a prince?

Thanks. I just noticed it right before I posted myself.

Reichu wrote:BB:Regarding the "foundation being laid" here, I'm going to hope that it's ultimately a commentary on teamwork and fellowship and all that good stuff. Nothing about being "rescued" per se -- just lending people a hand when they need it, knowing that they'd do the same thing for you.

Me too. Isn't that why Misato had them live together in the first place? So they could learn to "harmonize" and work together as a team? It didn't pan out in 2.0 but there's no reason it couldn't come back next time. And the more I ponder it, the more I think that might be what Asuka is really looking for from him. This Asuka has that lone wolf streak but she makes a big deal out of people helping her. 5 seconds after meeting Shinji she starts busting his bakas over it, then says she didn't need his help anyway. Look at her relationship with Mari, too. The are constantly giving each other grief over one or the other being out of sync for proper support fire. Shikinami's a military brat, so maybe it's a big deal to her?

Funny enough, she never harasses Rei over the subject, but the two times they deploy together, Rei is in position to give support when she needs it. Rei/Asuka endgame confirmed!

The movie does shiptease a bit, but I think it can also be used as evidence that she's moved on. Asuka doesn't bite Mari's bait like she did with Toji's newlyweds comment, which could mean that she's moved on from that crush. I thought Asuka being "Princess" was an inside joke since Sakamoto voiced Lal'C who was also "Princess" and Shikinami is similar to her in some ways.

Reichu wrote:Why do you think he's the one who did it? As you point out, he has absolutely no recollection of this event, which might imply his participation was as an unconscious "trigger" at best. There's any number of things that could have been going on there.

I'm not at all convinced that he did, but I think the way the scene is framed and the follow-up with Wille distrusting him over it is supposed to make the audience think that he did. But unless Asuka was open broadcasting and Unit 01 just happened to be eavesdropping, it shouldn't have heard her plea for help at all. It's a whole menagerie of at least 3 different souls at that moment, so it could have been any one of them that triggered the awakening, or Unit 01 could have sensed the danger and course-corrected to preserve itself since the battle was throwing it into a dangerous trajectory.

BlueBasilisk wrote:The movie does shiptease a bit, but I think it can also be used as evidence that she's moved on. Asuka doesn't bite Mari's bait like she did with Toji's newlyweds comment, which could mean that she's moved on from that crush.

In my view you're overthinking this. The mere fact that she has all that pent up anger and grief means she hasn't "moved on" at all. Maybe it's hinting at her old crush on him, or maybe it isn't. But "moved on" is out of the question. She clearly hasn't.

Shinji and Asuka are not getting together in rebuild. That ship has sunk and become a coral reef in the 14 years he's been gone. Add on top of that everything he did in 3.33?

The romance is dead get over it and move on like Shinji will no doubt be forced to.

Ray wrote:Shinji and Asuka are not getting together in rebuild. That ship has sunk and become a coral reef in the 14 years he's been gone. Add on top of that everything he did in 3.33?

The romance is dead get over it and move on like Shinji will no doubt be forced to.

Are we all gonna have this argument every time?

Ray wrote:The romance is dead get over it and move on like Shinji will no doubt be forced to.

I'm going to assume that you're talking out loud to yourself, given how distanced your comment is from anything actually happening in the thread. But if this is the case, why say anything at all, except to provide the daily reassurance that your ideological stance hasn't budged? Come on, Ray. Contribute better and harder.

Lennik wrote:In my view you're overthinking this. The mere fact that she has all that pent up anger and grief means she hasn't "moved on" at all. Maybe it's hinting at her old crush on him, or maybe it isn't. But "moved on" is out of the question. She clearly hasn't.

Of course she hasn't moved on entirely. They have a history togethr so there's going to be emotional baggage the romantic or not. But even in 2.0 she willingly backed off from him when she thought Rei loved him romantically and even offered to pilot Unit 03 in part to help her out. I didn't get the sense that she was terribly invested in Shinji back then and she seemed fine with "losing" to Rei after crying for a bit. With their current age gap, I personally think she'll move into Misato's now vacated role and Misato into Gendo's as the parent he whose approval he desires.

On the subject of help, I wonder if anyone told Asuka about this?

It's typical Asuka fashion. She hates him for causing third impact and stunning her growth with the curse of Eva. But it won't stop her from wanting to get recognition from her old co-worker. You can see how bittersweet she is when she punches the glass when first seeing Shinji, trembling in mixed emotions.

Director Black wrote:It's typical Asuka fashion. She hates him for causing third impact and stunning her growth with the curse of Eva.

I really don't think she would have pulled him out of that entry plug at the end of the movie if she hated him.

Lennik wrote:I really don't think she would have pulled him out of that entry plug at the end of the movie if she hated him.

With Asuka, I get the sense that she wants Shinji to be happy, but, like I mentioned earlier, holds contempt for him causing 3I and inflicting the curse of Eva on her (She always wants to be seen as an adult). She pulled him out because 1) He's pretty important for WILLE, and 2) She still hopes that she can find a connection with him.

Director Black wrote:holds contempt for him [...] inflicting the curse of Eva on her

Hold on - Shinji can be blamed for a number of things, but how are you putting that one on him?

^ I stay in this on the 'memories of Shinji" thread.

If your best friend left you to die in a car accident when he could have easily pulled you out, and him refusing to pull you out left you crippled for life. . .

Resentment wouldn't begin to justify the loathing one would have.

That's the way I see it - even if his reason was that he thought he'd injure you more by trying.

Ray wrote:^ I stay in this on the 'memories of Shinji" thread.

If your best friend left you to die in a car accident when he could have easily pulled you out, and him refusing to pull you out left you crippled for life. . .

Resentment wouldn't begin to justify the loathing one would have.

First, I think you misjudge the meaning of the word "easily," and second, I'm pretty sure she was contaminated more or less as soon as the Eva 03 test began, and not because of anything Shinji did or didn't do, unless I'm misremembering.

The Curse of Eva seems to happen to all the pilots, or at least all the pilots who reach a certain plug depth. That can NOT be blamed on Shinji.

pwhodges wrote:Hold on - Shinji can be blamed for a number of things, but how are you putting that one on him?

I mixed my words up. To be honest, I was rambling at that point (At least in my head), so you can write that off.