The Endless Question: The Souls of the Mass Production Evangelion Series

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The Endless Question: The Souls of the Mass Production Evangelion Series

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Postby Squigsquasher » Tue Oct 11, 2016 5:58 am

The MP Evas are a total enigma. Whilst Unit 00's soul can be reasonably deduced to be Rei 1 (or a fragment of Rei 1 at any rate, given that there is only one Rei at any given time and as far as we know, all Reis contain at least part of Lilith's soul) and Unit 03 is obviously Touji's mum. The MP Evas however have no such information available about them. They must have some kind of soul inside them or else they wouldn't work; the AT Field (AKA the light of the soul) is what keeps such enormous organisms from collapsing under their own weight.

Now it is shown that the MP Evas are piloted by Kaworu-based dummy plugs. There is the theory that the MP Evas themselves are soulless and the Kaworu dummy system is what proxies their souls. However, the dummy system merely provides a remote pilot, something to synchronize with and thus control the native soul inside; being at the end of the day a highly complex computer programme that merely emulates a pilot's mind, it is incapable of generating the AT field that would be needed to sustain an Evangelion. Therefore the MP Evas must have some form of soul.

Now one popular (and grim) theory is that the souls of the MP Evas are in fact the remaining pilot candidates- in other words, all of Asuka's school friends. However, this doesn't quite add up; the MP Evas were originally supposed to be the actual mass production versions of the Evangelion, and presumably originally intended for living pilots- plus, they are stated to be in various stages of completion at a time when the other children are still present and very much alive.

I instead propose that the Eva Series' souls are actually the pilot candidate's mothers, with the dummy plug system replacing the originally intended pilots. The MP Evas may indeed have been intended to be far more regular in appearance before being retrofitted as totally autonomous weapons/SEELE's trump card.
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Re: The Endless Question: The Souls of the Mass Production Evangelion Series

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Postby AuraTwilight » Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:21 am

Since the Dummy Plugs can sync with any soul and the MP Evas were always meant to use it, the souls of the MP Evas don't matter; they could literally be hobos.

Though they're probably SEELE loyalists, to be frank. Can't be having your own Evas berserk and dovetail away from your apocalyptic scenario.
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Re: The Endless Question: The Souls of the Mass Production Evangelion Series

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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:10 pm

I think they're fragments of Adam's soul, i.e. fragments of Kaworu's soul. They were still under construction when he arrived in ep. 24. I think this is a possibility that doesn't interfere with continuity. Plus, he did say that he and Rei were the same, so maybe that parallels his connection to the MPEs the way Rei is connected to Unit 00.
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Re: The Endless Question: The Souls of the Mass Production Evangelion Series

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Postby Reichu » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:28 pm

We're told that Adam's soul resides only within Kaworu, so that probably rules out fragments being anywhere else.

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Re: The Endless Question: The Souls of the Mass Production Evangelion Series

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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:32 pm

I meant after he dies...
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Re: The Endless Question: The Souls of the Mass Production Evangelion Series

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Postby Sachi » Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:25 pm

After Kaworu dies, his soul is somehow later present in GNR during EoE, so in the meantime it was probably lingering around Terminal Dogma where Kaworu died.
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Re: The Endless Question: The Souls of the Mass Production Evangelion Series

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:45 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:After Kaworu dies, his soul is somehow later present in GNR during EoE, so in the meantime it was probably lingering around Terminal Dogma where Kaworu died.

I had always assumed that it returned to Adam's flesh, which was in Gendo's hand at the time. This explains why Rei returning to Lilith results in GNR, which can switch to GNKowaru; it's a direct result of the forbidden fusion of Adam and Lilith. Gendo intended to be the one to fuse with Lilith, wanting to take Rei's (Lilith's) soul into him (why else would the whole bit with him sticking his hand in Rei happen? IIRC he states, maybe only in the manga, that he wishes to become God; however, it's really the only thing he could be doing down there in the anime, even if it isn't directly stated, because he's so upset when Rei just takes his arm and leaves him) and then merge with Lilith's body with both her soul and Adam's soul residing within him. That, or he wanted to merge with Rei who would then promptly return to Lilith, fusing Adam, Lilith, Rei, and Gendo together.

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Re: The Endless Question: The Souls of the Mass Production Evangelion Series

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Postby Sachi » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:06 pm

View Original PostStrokeMeGoat wrote:I had always assumed that it returned to Adam's flesh, which was in Gendo's hand at the time. This explains why Rei returning to Lilith results in GNR, which can switch to GNKowaru; it's a direct result of the forbidden fusion of Adam and Lilith. Gendo intended to be the one to fuse with Lilith, wanting to take Rei's (Lilith's) soul into him (why else would the whole bit with him sticking his hand in Rei happen? IIRC he states, maybe only in the manga, that he wishes to become God; however, it's really the only thing he could be doing down there in the anime, even if it isn't directly stated, because he's so upset when Rei just takes his arm and leaves him) and then merge with Lilith's body with both her soul and Adam's soul residing within him. That, or he wanted to merge with Rei who would then promptly return to Lilith, fusing Adam, Lilith, Rei, and Gendo together.

It's possible the soul returned to its body, which would have been in Gendo's hand. However, I don't think it's necessary for it to do so, as all necessary fusions occur in Terminal Dogma anyways. And it's also not necessary to explain GNR, since either way, Adam's soul would be present (either floating in Terminal Dogma, or in Gendo's hand) in the creation of GNR. IMO, the soul returning to Adam's embryo may or may not have happened, but it seems like an extraneous step in the process, and I'm not sure if there's any evidence that suggests it must be so.

The initial point of my comment was to support the fact that Adam's soul had not been fractured, even after Kaworu's death, and therefore portions of it would not be present in the MPEs. After his death, Kaworu's soul is most certainly not recollected by Seele (how would they retrieve it?), and so the only option for it is to wait around (either in TD, Gendo's hand, etc) until the forbidden fusion occurs in Terminal Dogma later in EoE.
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Re: The Endless Question: The Souls of the Mass Production Evangelion Series

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Postby Director Black » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:51 pm

I remember when Shamshel got defeated, it's entire body was left the way it was formed. This could mean that SEELE used it's DNA to create the MPE's and combined them the mindless recklessness/obedience that was present in the soul of Lilith (Evidenced by Rei I's personality).
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Re: The Endless Question: The Souls of the Mass Production Evangelion Series

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Postby SoryuUberAlles » Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:57 pm

Yeah, I mean it's an endless discussion that's mostly stuck on the known problems. If you can make Eva-like units that don't need pilots then why wouldn't Gendo do that already? Episode 18 proved he would and as long as he has dummy plugs we know he could.

View Original PostSquigsquasher wrote:I instead propose that the Eva Series' souls are actually the pilot candidate's mothers, with the dummy plug system replacing the originally intended pilots. The MP Evas may indeed have been intended to be far more regular in appearance before being retrofitted as totally autonomous weapons/SEELE's trump card.


Isn't the whole point about synch ratios that the EVA's AT-field is an expression of the pilot's soul...or am I wrong? And if they're not, then how is MP-Eva doing it differently?
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Re: The Endless Question: The Souls of the Mass Production Evangelion Series

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Postby Reichu » Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:32 pm

View Original PostSoryuUberAlles wrote:Isn't the whole point about synch ratios that the EVA's AT-field is an expression of the pilot's soul...or am I wrong? And if they're not, then how is MP-Eva doing it differently?

Pilot's soul, you say?
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Director Black wrote:I remember when Shamshel got defeated, it's entire body was left the way it was formed. This could mean that SEELE used it's DNA to create the MPE's and combined them the mindless recklessness/obedience that was present in the soul of Lilith (Evidenced by Rei I's personality).

What's the significance of Shamshel here? What would its DNA offer that Adam's doesn't already? The whole point of the MP Evas is that they're an army of Adams over which Seele have (they think) complete control.

What does Lilith's soul have to do with the MP Evas? (Before it forcibly takes them over, anyway...)

StrokeMeGoat wrote:I had always assumed that it returned to Adam's flesh, which was in Gendo's hand at the time.

Depends on whether or not Kaworu has a core. He is both Lilin-shaped and, genetically, half or more Lilin, so I would lean towards "no". If so, Kaworu's soul would probably abide by the usual rules where cores aren't involved: that is, it's bound to his body as a whole. We know at least the head remained intact, so the soul would stay put in there. If the head were just left in the LCL at Lilith's feet, then it could simply be absorbed into her body when she starts expanding in size.

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Re: The Endless Question: The Souls of the Mass Production Evangelion Series

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Postby SoryuUberAlles » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:09 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Pilot's soul, you say?


If we accept dummies+mommy soul as the absolute minimum for an offensive AT field...
1. Why are Evangelions kid+mommy soul dependent? Are they defective?
2. If it's Kaworu-dummies why them?
3. Or is it the MPs themselves?

Director Black's "3-Shamsel corpose" theory is intriguing I guess because it sounds fresh. If Israfel can split them shamsel-material can BE split...

But I guess I'll prod the "2- adam soul fragments" just because I want to unload this: Kaworu =/= Adam, guys. Kaworu is also not Rei. Rei is the 'salvaged remains' of a human housing a angel Soul. Kaworu is an whole angel housing another angel. Angel Kaworu may be the personality that interacts with Shinji and returns as GNR. Adam's be-vesselled soul can go wandering.

So maybe Seele and the MPs just have a dummy plug advantage.
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Re: The Endless Question: The Souls of the Mass Production Evangelion Series

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Postby Reichu » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:43 am

View Original PostSoryuUberAlles wrote:If we accept dummies+mommy soul as the absolute minimum for an offensive AT field... (snip)

Why do you specify "offensive A.T. Field" here? What about defensive uses? For simplicity's sake, I'm just going to assume you're talking about ATF generation and deployment in general...

You shouldn't technically need anything more than a soul resident to the Eva's body (i.e., within the core) to make ATF generation possible. Adam, Lilith, and the Angels can accomplish this feat just fine with a single soul, so there's no real good reason why the Evas should be different -- unless they were modified to be that way, which seems like the simplest explanation.

The need for both resident soul and pilot is a pretty convoluted matter that requires going into the development of the Evas to fully address. I'd recommend (re-)reading the relevant sections of the Classified Information, here and here, then ask further questions if needed. Leaving those specifics aside, the gist is that the Evas were intended to be "pilotable" from the very start, but Gehirn eventually figured out that this was only possible if the Eva had a soul resident within the core. But, obviously, it's not "piloting" something if the thing to be piloted is controlling itself. I doubt the idea of the Evas being autonomous was ever seriously considered, given the sheer number of unknowns involved and, most importantly, Seele's need for total control.

The dummy system is just an auto-pilot that offers improvements by way of following instructions to a T and not feeling (or alternatively, just not caring about) pain. They're digitized personality data that is the closest thing in the NGE world to an artificial soul. It sounds like they're supposed to work by transmitting this data to the Eva, with the expectation that the Eva "believes" it's a pilot and synchronizes. On its face, this seems pretty silly, since Evas actually are sentient. They know what's going on and what you're sticking into them, even if they can't typically let you know that they know. Synchronization is not something that just happens; the Eva has to let it happen. Since the Eva has no bond to a crappy digitization, it's hard to imagine why they would just go ahead and synchronize with it.

[That said, in episode 18's specific circumstances, it does make sense why Yui would cooperate. She's been cut off from Shinji, but the circumstances still threaten both of them. Synchronizing with the Rei data provides a way to immediately get back into action. As long as the threat is eliminated, this saves Yui the trouble of rebelling against her implants (something that probably isn't easy, and she probably doesn't want to do any more than absolutely necessary besides, since it attracts undesirable attention).]

Ritsuko does mention that the dummy system has "problems", and while superficially we're led to think this has something to do with the DS being batshit crazy, that doesn't have to be the only reason. The Evas having no reason, by default, to treat these things as pilots seems like a pretty big problem, as far as the DS being a remotely reliable pilot substitute goes. Where the MPs are concerned, this means that the problem was either resolved somehow... Or maybe, along the lines of what NemZ suggested, Seele got a bunch of loyalist groupies to sacrifice their souls for them. :p

Kaworu =/= Adam, guys. Kaworu is also not Rei. Rei is the 'salvaged remains' of a human housing a angel Soul. Kaworu is an whole angel housing another angel. Angel Kaworu may be the personality that interacts with Shinji and returns as GNR. Adam's be-vesselled soul can go wandering.

Kaworu gets his own Angel slot because he's part of Seele's scenario; Rei doesn't have a slot because she's Gendo's project instead. Both Rei and Kaworu are Lilin-shaped vessels resulting from weird experiments involving Lilith and Adam, housing the souls of said Seeds. They are by far more similar than they are different.

I have no idea what the bolded part is supposed to mean.

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Re: The Endless Question: The Souls of the Mass Production Evangelion Series

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Postby CommanderFish » Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:44 am

I think that--before trying to answer this question--one must ask another: does the resident soul of an Evangelion Unit have to be female?

I'm guessing this has already been discussed to great amounts already, as it seems to me like yet another "endless question". Who knows though, maybe someone has a convincing answer...
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Re: The Endless Question: The Souls of the Mass Production Evangelion Series

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Postby Reichu » Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:38 am

View Original PostCommanderFish wrote:does the resident soul of an Evangelion Unit have to be female?

My answer is going to be an affirmative.

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Re: The Endless Question: The Souls of the Mass Production Evangelion Series

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Postby SoryuUberAlles » Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:20 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:You shouldn't technically need anything more than a soul resident to the Eva's body (snip) Where the MPs are concerned, this means that the problem was either resolved somehow... Or maybe, along the lines of what NemZ suggested, Seele got a bunch of loyalist groupies to sacrifice their souls for them.


But if it's that easy then why use the Evas at all? The series makes autonomy look like a pretty sweet deal: Gendo shuts down a rogue pilot with a Rei plug and Seele's MP squad do their job just fine. Pilots are actually the thing the Jet Alone complains about. You seem to be pushing the theory that EVA's can deploy their own ATF but just wont without the maternally bonded pilot. So...why would MP eva's be different? That's actually a pretty big hurdle. If you didn't need to get around it that why would you wouldn't need Squigsquasher's Classroom Mommies souls' at all. If you don't need any soul but the Eva-unit's why even have Seele donor souls? Why would people keep using Eva's once this hurdle was jumped, and if it was, then how did it happen?

I guess what I'm saying is abandoning this restriction would change, if not the metaphysics, then at the very least the strategy of the 3I-schemers a whole lot so I feel a theory of Director Black's grandiosity would be required. So I'm boositng the "adam's recovered soul fragments theory" going around here for now. It feels...mythopoetic.

1. Kaworu dies in episode 24. Ever heard the theory that if you die before instrumentality you can't be recovered. He's the best evidence. Nothing he says about death vs 'his destiny to live forever' makes sense if he doesn't. Furthermore he makes no appearance in episodes 25 and 26 at all. If Kaworu is dead and Kaworu is Adam, Adam cannot be alive.
2. Kaworu wasn't Adam's vessel in the On-Air Version. The speech where Seele says this is the monoliths-by-the-lake scene that was only included in DC. Furthermore he was only described as an Angel in both the Draft scripts for episode 24. His birthday is SI and the (wiki) quotes the End of Evangelion Theatrical Booklet. Glossary: 'Kaworu Nagisa. "It is likely that he was an Angel which had been captured by SEELE in the embryo stage.".'
- 2.1 Rei does not have a SI birthdate officially and IDK any reason to think she ever existed as an independent FoL creature. Both her body, Yui, and soul, Lillith, pre-exist the jury rigged memento mori that is Rei Ayanami
3. It's entirely possible Kaworu is an independent Angel, who is used to house Adam, completing his necessary death that TOTALLY AND DEFINITELY happened, allowing Adam's soul to return to the Kaworu-dummy plugs, activating the MP Evas.

Also explaining why EoE happens within, like, hours of Kaworu dieing.
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Re: The Endless Question: The Souls of the Mass Production Evangelion Series

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Postby Reichu » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:50 pm

SOA, the dummy system is another kind of pilot. If the Evas were autonomous, they would be controlled by themselves -- the soul resident to the body -- the way it is with every other organism.

"You seem to be pushing the theory...": You argued that the ATF came from the pilot and I provided a quote that contradicted that.

The rest of your post reads like an argument that got lost while looking for the right thread to park in. I can't really tell what you're trying to get at; it's all over the place.

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Re: The Endless Question: The Souls of the Mass Production Evangelion Series

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Postby SoryuUberAlles » Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:37 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:You shouldn't technically need anything more than a soul resident to the Eva's body (i.e., within the core) to make ATF generation possible.

The dummy system is just an auto-pilot that offers improvements by way of following instructions to a T and not feeling (or alternatively, just not caring about) pain. They're digitized personality data that is the closest thing in the NGE world to an artificial soul. It sounds like they're supposed to work by transmitting this data to the Eva, with the expectation that the Eva "believes" it's a pilot and synchronizes. On its face, this seems pretty silly, since Evas actually are sentient. They know what's going on and what you're sticking into them, even if they can't typically let you know that they know. Synchronization is not something that just happens; the Eva has to let it happen. Since the Eva has no bond to a crappy digitization, it's hard to imagine why they would just go ahead and synchronize with it.


You seem to suggest that:
1. EVAs do not need pilots to project ATFs as sentient beings.
2. As sentient beings, Mom-soul Evas need a pilot-kid in order to choose to do so.
Therefore, along others' suggestions:
3. Either;
- 3.a The MPs activate their own ATFs because Kaworu-DS can meet is mommy-pilot bond demands. (and the Rei-DS can't);
- 3.b Or the MsP have chosen non-Mom souls and only need the DS as an auto-pilot . (NemZ's "Seele volunteers" theory)

(PPS Where did NemZ's post go? I can't see it now.)

But I think if you could make ATF-generating Evas or MP within this idea of Shinseiki's metaphysical sciences, then you would make them instead of pilot-controlled Evas. I don't think the series demonstrates autonomy has any obvious drawbacks.

View Original PostSachi wrote:The initial point of my comment was to support the fact that Adam's soul had not been fractured, even after Kaworu's death, and therefore portions of it would not be present in the MPEs. After his death, Kaworu's soul is most certainly not recollected by Seele (how would they retrieve it?), and so the only option for it is to wait around (either in TD, Gendo's hand, etc) until the forbidden fusion occurs in Terminal Dogma later in EoE.


The second part of my post is indeed addressing the theory pushed by SMG, SIA10 and Sachi that the Kaworu-DS operates using fragment's of Adam's soul. I would like to emphasise that this makes it also helps solve a few other dilemmas in the series. ("does Kaworu actually die?") ("why do the start 3I when they do?")
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Re: The Endless Question: The Souls of the Mass Production Evangelion Series

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Postby Director Black » Sat Oct 15, 2016 1:52 pm

View Original PostSoryuUberAlles wrote:I guess what I'm saying is abandoning this restriction would change, if not the metaphysics, then at the very least the strategy of the 3I-schemers a whole lot so I feel a theory of Director Black's grandiosity would be required. So I'm boositng the "adam's recovered soul fragments theory" going around here for now. It feels...mythopoetic.


I also wanted to point something out. Keeping in mind that parts of Lilith were used for the Rei clones and Unit 01 and how part of Adam fused with a random human made Kaworu. He stands out from the other angels not just because he looks different, but because, in a way, the angels share the same personality trait: scared, giant monsters trying to navigate their way. Three of the angels (Leliel, Arael and Armisael) even talk to the three Eva pilots and it shown that they have a lack of understanding at everything. Leliel lets Unit 01 kill it because it sees Shinji's pain about how much life sucks. Arael is a grey area since it's never made clear if the young Asuka that talks to her old self in the playground is really the angel, but if it is, it's another example of the Angel's communicating. Armisael is the clearest of the three, expressing real emotion when talking to Rei.

With Kaworu, his very existence was to be the final angel, putting an end to Nerv and fulfilling SEELE's plans. However, similar to Leliel, he sees Shinji's emotions and betrays his own species (Well, he's half, but you get what I mean).

All of this leaves us with the MPE's. It's ironic that the packages that hold say KAWORU on it because it's the exact opposite the essence of his character. Instead of being thoughtful and compassionate, the MPE's are mindless dolls, only existing to further SEELE's plan. Mindless dolls that are basically what happens with SEELE possibly screwing around with the DNA of Adam and Lilith.
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Re: The Endless Question: The Souls of the Mass Production Evangelion Series

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Postby Reichu » Sat Oct 15, 2016 5:25 pm

View Original PostSoryuUberAlles wrote:the theory pushed by SMG, SIA10 and Sachi

Sachi isn't "pushing" it. In the text that you just quoted, he's detailing problems with the idea.

Director Black wrote:Leliel lets Unit 01 kill it because it sees Shinji's pain about how much life sucks.

Where are you getting that from? Everything leading up to Leliel's death involves Shinji on the brink of dying and being contacted by Yui as a result.

Instead of being thoughtful and compassionate, the MPE's are mindless dolls, only existing to further SEELE's plan. Mindless dolls that are basically what happens with SEELE possibly screwing around with the DNA of Adam and Lilith.

The Rei dummy system was the same way -- simplistic and brutal. I wouldn't look any further than the DS itself for an explanation. It's a shoddy mock-up of a soul, and it's very possible that this is intentional on the part of Nerv/Seele. Naoko created a system for digitizing the human personality back when she created the MAGI, and the super-computer has been extremely functional, unhampered by even Naoko's personality defects. There's little chance that a preexisting proven technology would not be put to further use for a nearly identical application, so odds are Naoko's personality upload OS plays a significant role in how dummy systems are created. However, unlike the MAGI which are designed as a 3-way autonomous check-and-balance system, Gendo and Seele just want Evas to follow directions without pesky things like morality getting in the way. From that point of view, intentionally "dumbing down" the digital dummy would be to their benefit. The excessively violent behavior could be seen as a side effect of creating something incapable of questioning orders; that is, there is nothing in the DS capable of reflection or moderation.


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