Black Moon Scale/Size

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Craftee
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Black Moon Scale/Size

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Postby Craftee » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:04 am

after a few hours of work, this is my conclusion.
if you guys like to point out errors, ill be glad to fix them.
Full GLORY : here! make sure to zoom in.

EDIT: thought i was on to something, but due miscalculations my diagrams are totally wrong.
i guess BM really is 13km wide.
also, thanks to mariachi for all the clarifications.

SPOILER: Show
Image
Last edited by Craftee on Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Still waiting on Evangelion Final...

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:49 am

Well, color me impressed. That's a pretty intense effort.

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:12 pm

:jawdrop:
Wow, that's an impressive work here!

Although, and I don't like being the one who say it, but I think that your calculation are way off the scale : first, according to your scale of the Black Moon with Japan, when it emerged from Earth, Mount Fuji would had been obliterated, since the BM is in what once was Hakone. Yet when Fourth Impact is aborted and the BM crashes back on the ground, you can see the Mount Fuji still here, you can even use it as a way to figure out the size of the BM :
SPOILER: Show
The images a couple of second before that shot shows Mt Fuji much clearer :[wkimg]File:Eva3-33 C1477 blackmoon.jpg[/wkimg]


The upper side of the BM seems to be roughly of three Mt Fuji(I'm guessing from sight here), said mount is 3776 meters tall, multiplied by three that makes 11 328 meters, which is very close to the BM's dimension as shown in supplemental material from NGE, giving the BM a diameter of 13 750 meters.
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Postby Craftee » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:45 pm

Hmmmm.. im investigating it more, and it does seem like my calculations are off, but i wonder where i went wrong?

perhaps i messed up on figure 2
Still waiting on Evangelion Final...

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Re: Black Moon Scale/Size

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Postby xfs » Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:24 pm

I also got curious about scales of things and looked a bit. Mostly I just wanted to find out where Mari and Shinji landed after N4I from this pano which looks like based on real aerial imagery.
SPOILER: Show
Image
But without knowing the size of the Black Moon it was hard to do anything.

The result is I found several things have inconsistent scales and was unable to go on.

First, it is established by Shinji that the inner Nerv ruins in the Inverted Pyramid is the original one, not replica. So Craftee's Figure 4 correctly derives the length of the old Nerv pyramid, 400m. Therefore the inner Nerv ruins has length of about 1km. Craftee's Figure 2 should not be able to get the exact size of the Inverted Pyramid due to unknown perspective projection but that is not a huge problem. We know that the length of the Inverted Pyramid must be at least twice that of the inner Nerv ruins, so I'll give it 3km for the Inverted Pyramid. The numbers so far are reliable.

Then we see from this pano
SPOILER: Show
Image
The altitude of the Inverted Pyramid is 10 times the height of it (therefore 30km), and also the radius of the crater (of 3I?) is 20 times the height of the Inverted Pyramid (therefore 60km). But the numbers from this images are problematic because it is only 15km from Geofront to the nearest shore,
SPOILER: Show
Overhead view of N3I aligned to Google Maps which locates Geofront. The radius of the outer ring is 10km. (This also shows there was no sea level change after 2I?!)Image
So if the crater is as big as of 60km radius, it would flatten Mount Fuji and get filled by seawater, which is obviously not true. So this pano is probably out of proportion. The appearance of the crater is also inconsistent with this pano http://evageeks.org/images/screens/eva- ... yramid.jpg. These panos are oil paintings so they can be excused for having wrong scales.

There are other inconsistent scales.
SPOILER: Show
The radius of the Black Moon is 75x the diameter of the "pipe". The length of the the Inverted Pyramid is 25x the diameter of the "pipe". So the radius of the Black Moon is 3x the length of the Inverted Pyramid? (9km?) But Craftee's Figure 1 shows the top of the Black Moon is 20x the length of the Inverted Pyramid. Image

But anyway from Google Maps it is measured 20km from Geofront to the near side of Mount Fuji. For Mount Fuji to exist after 3I and N4I, the radius of the Black Moon must be less than 20km. (The 15km radius from nearest shore can probably be ignored if we assume 3I terraforms so much it created new walls around the crater and prevented seawater from filling in.)

I think the only problem with Craftee's 120km diameter estimate probably comes from Figure 1 where the scales of the Inverted Pyramid and the Black Moon are inconsistent.

From this http://wiki.evageeks.org/File:Eva3-33_C1477_blackmoon.jpg cut (the view is from North East) we see the top of the Black Moon extends beyond Mount Fuji. The bottom of the Black Moon should stay near Geofront as we see from the sequence when Eva-13 falls to the ground the bottom has not been lifted above the ground. The distance from Geofront to the far side of Mount Fuji is 30km. So the estimate for the diameter of the Black Moon from this cut is 30km.

All these can be excused by "artistic scales" so it's probably not very useful to model them geometrically.

Also, apparently Mount Fuji has disappeared in the preview (Craftee's Figure 5), though this may just be an error.

ElMariachi wrote:The upper side of the BM seems to be roughly of three Mt Fuji(I'm guessing from sight here), said mount is 3776 meters tall, multiplied by three that makes 11 328 meters

I think the estimate of 11km is way off. But it's very hard to see from this cut so I won't use the height of Mount Fuji. Also, settings from NGE are probably not applicable to NTE here.

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Re: Black Moon Scale/Size

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:02 pm

I think your estimations are off, along with the fact that you used the cross-section of the inverted pyramid that was presented in perspective. There is also little sense of distance between the black moon and that inverted pyramid, and it seems like you totally guess that. Another thing is that I don't know if the Eva sizes are consistent in Rebuild, because they certainly aren't in NGE. They could be, but without knowing that for sure, it is definitely a mistake to use them as a basis for measurement. Lastly, the background and foreground can be framed in such a way that the size of something in the background is completely distorted, and makes your estimation of how far the black moon is from the inverted pyramid even more lofty. Here is an example:

SPOILER: Show
Image


Now, I know that they aren't using a real camera, but the same effect is employed in animation all the time. As you can see, based on the difference sizes of lenses (I'm not technically knowledgeable enough to give proper terminology here), the apartments in the far distance can look extremely close, or extremely far away even when the picture is taken from the same spot and angle (it can even make the angle of the picture look different because of how compressed the foreground and background become).

So, you went wrong simply because there aren't enough exact measurements to base anything off of, and simply estimating the distance between things in perspective without several shots taken at the same aperture/lens size from multiple angles, but at the same distance is simply not accurate enough to even get within the ballpark here. Granted, you had very little to work with, so you probably did the best you could. Unfortunately, that doesn't count for much in the way of accuracy.

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Re: Black Moon Scale/Size

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:13 pm

View Original PostStrokeMeGoat wrote:Another thing is that I don't know if the Eva sizes are consistent in Rebuild, because they certainly aren't in NGE. They could be, but without knowing that for sure, it is definitely a mistake to use them as a basis for measurement.


They are. The Evas are consistently 75 meters at the head/80 at the pylons. They have scale charts in the CRCs with various other set pieces and with the Evas being 3D models it's a lot easier to adjust their sizes.
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Re: Black Moon Scale/Size

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:11 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:They are. The Evas are consistently 75 meters at the head/80 at the pylons. They have scale charts in the CRCs with various other set pieces and with the Evas being 3D models it's a lot easier to adjust their sizes.

I had a feeling they probably were, thanks for confirming though.


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