Whaaaaats behind Doors of Guf number 2!? [cue lights]

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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ElMariachi
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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:34 am

Oh I got your point don't worry, my last post was just a buffoonery! :lol:

But yeah it's clear that something else happened after N3I and the end of 2.0, man how must debates will be rendered moot once we know about these events, if Anno ever explain them to us! :tongue:
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Th3Marauder » Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:45 am

I always, and I mean episode 24 always, have had the impression that Kaworu is a god damn liar. Or even worse, not just a liar, but someone who lies in the vaguest means possible, especially to Shinji. I do think he cares about Shinji, but come on, the speech he gives Shinji while looking over the core-ified world is lie after lie after lie.

Somewhat back to the topic, I always just figured the gates were different because N3I was a Lilith-based Impact, while 2I and 3IP were Adam-based Impacts.

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Postby wiser3754 » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:52 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Actually taking the dialogue into account, I don't see a problem.

{Kaworu} Ikari Shinji-kun,
{Kaworu} once Awakened, Eva-01 opened the Door of Guf
{Kaworu} and became the trigger for Third Impact.
{Kaworu} Lilin call it Near Third Impact.

Kaworu specifies "once awakened" (ichido mezame shi) and that he is referring to Near Third Impact, hence the flashback visuals match up. The only enigmatic part is how Eva-01 became the trigger for Third Impact proper as a result of the aborted N3I.


What I find very surprising about "the Door of Guf" is that there seems to be only one and only door of Guf when using that line of dialogue. "The" not "a" Door of Guf. I speculate this only on the basis that the vortex at 2nd Impact is never seen in 3.33 having supposedly closed at that epicentre at the start of N3I or one of the surviving ADAMS was removed sometime in the time skip.
Honestly, how can the door of Guf at N3I cause supposedly so much devastation in under 5 minutes when the Door Of Guf (if that's what the vortexes are called) at 2nd Impact has been open for 14 years causing vast devastation over that period of time?!
I watch and speculate.

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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:49 am

Hey, wait a second, Reichu and Th3Marauder's posts made me realize something about Kaworu's speech :
Kaworu wrote:Ikari Shinji-kun, once Awakened, Eva-01 opened the Door of Guf and became the trigger for Third Impact.
Lilin call it Near Third Impact. It was all initiated by you.

By "all initiated by you", of which event he's talking about?

First idea would be that EVA-01 awoke, opened the Door which launched Third Impact(everything we saw in 2.0, except that it obliterated everything), but the Lilin called the event Near Third Impact instead of Third Impact since part of humanity survived... meaning that while Kaworu calls the event Third Impact, the Lilin calls it Near Third Impact.


But the Lilin uses both terms, Third Impact and NTE :

When Shinji arrives in the Wunder's Command Bridge at the beginning of the movie, Ritsuko talks about Near Third Impact :
00:09:37 {Ritsuko} Post-natal dental work and body composition perfectly match those from Near Third Impact.



And later when Asuka is fighting Shinji in Lilith's Chamber, she talks about Third Impact, at multiple times :
01:10:04 {Asuka} You brat, Shinji!
01:10:05 {Asuka} Are you trying to cause Third Impact again?


01:14:40 {Asuka} We'll take care of this before Third Impact starts up again!

And since she's talking of it in Lilith's Chamber, the "epicenter of Third Impact" according to Kaworu, she's obviously talking about the event that destroyed the world, but she was talking about what Shinji did 14 years ago, wouldn't she better say "Are you trying to cause Near Third Impact again?"

So even they seem to make a distinction between NTI and 3I.

Added to that the other hints that ulterior events happened after 2.0 (Mark.06 turned into an autonomous unit, that epicenter business...) and back to the first question : when Kaworu is saying "Lilin call it Near Third Impact.", what is Kaworu referring to : that EVA-01, when it awoke 14 ago in 2.0 launched Third Impact and destroyed the world... or he was referring to the event in which EVA-01, by its awakening, became a trigger for Impacts that was later used to launch Third Impact?(thus being the "trigger for Third Impact")

And subsequently, when he said " It was all initiated by you.", did he meant that his stunt 14 years ago changed the world in the state we see it in Q... or that the chain of events that led to EVA-01 becoming a trigger for Impacts later used to trigger Third Impact began when Shinji pseudo-evolved EVA-01 14 years ago, and thus was "all initiated by him"?


That sounds a crazy(heck, it probably is), but that's the only thing I see that could explain why Lilith's Chamber is considered the epicenter of Third Impact while Shinji's NTI happened kilometers above in the Geofront... and also means that Kaworu has been manipulating Shinji with half-truths.


And back on topic, that would explain why NTI's Door of Guf lacks the signature signs of 2I and N4I, namely the multi-colored vortex and strange round object appearing : 2I and N4I were controlled Impacts(thanks to the spears) meant to launch a controlled terraformation of Earth and "artificial evolution" of man(for N4I), while NTI was a "savage" Impact, completely uncontrolled due to the absence of spears, that would probably "only" annihilate everyone, if even that : Ritsuko said that it was the continuation of 2I, but from the moment EVA-01 pseudo-evolved she was as lost as everyone else about what was happening, meaning that Gendo kept important information from her, and if he didn't tell her about an Evangelion's power to pseudo-evolve, awake and later trigger an Impact, I doubt that he told her the specifics of Impacts mechanisms, like what using a given spear of combination of spears could do.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Reichu » Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:40 pm

View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:"The" not "a" Door of Guf.

Japanese actually has no articles. Don't look too much into it.

ElMariachi: I'm pretty sure the ideas in your post have already been proposed and thoroughly discussed, even if it hasn't been with a stress on that particular line of Kaworu's.
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Postby wiser3754 » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:43 am

Why I find disturbing in Kaworu's truth to Shinji is when Shinji denies he had anything to do with it, Kaworu tells him that "Humanity believes you do", hence the reason why Kaworu wants to take Shinji down to Level EEE aka Lilith's Chamber and take the spears. Kaworu might be pointing the finger at Shinji for the state of the world only because humanity doesn't believe he's not the culprit.

I also find it weird that when Kaworu mentions the reason of the Mark.09 following them is to look out for WILLE activity when he's not at all concerned about it, as if he's expecting WILLE to show up in order to bear witness to when UNIT-13 pulls the Spears of Cassius and Longinus.

One last thing, before Monk Ed flashes his scalpel, is Lilith as a trigger still applicable? If an Angel makes contact with Lilith, an Impact begins right? Well an Angel did make contact with her, so shouldn't that be a no-brainer? I wouldn't be surprised if it did, just look at the large crack in the ceiling of her chamber where Mari is sniping, it would probably be one of the four parts of the cross on the circumference found on the vortexes.
I watch and speculate.

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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:32 am

View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:Why I find disturbing in Kaworu's truth to Shinji is when Shinji denies he had anything to do with it, Kaworu tells him that "Humanity believes you do", hence the reason why Kaworu wants to take Shinji down to Level EEE aka Lilith's Chamber and take the spears. Kaworu might be pointing the finger at Shinji for the state of the world only because humanity doesn't believe he's not the culprit.

Well, to be fair, he did told to Shinji just before that he played a part on what happened :
00:51:58 {Kaworu} Lilin call it Near Third Impact.
00:52:02 {Kaworu} It was all initiated by you.
00:52:09 {Shinji} You're wrong!
00:52:10 {Shinji} All I wanted to do was save Ayanami!
00:52:16 {Kaworu} True, but that was the catalyst.

Now what we don't know is what part Shinji exactly played on all this, if it was directly(N3I destroyed the world) or indirectly(that was the first step in a chain of events that led to 3I by an Angel reaching Lilith, or SEELE attempting a premature HIP, or who know what)

---
I also find it weird that when Kaworu mentions the reason of the Mark.09 following them is to look out for WILLE activity when he's not at all concerned about it, as if he's expecting WILLE to show up in order to bear witness to when UNIT-13 pulls the Spears of Cassius and Longinus.

WILLE is against neo-NERV and SEELE, Kaworu works for SEELE, Shinji could be considered a neo-NERV affiliate, and they're piloting a neo-NERV Evangelion, so the probability that they will intervene to try to stop them is very high, and indeed they intervened.
It could be that Gendo spotted the Wunder on stand by around neo-NERV HQ and Kaworu know it too, and decided not to tell Shinji to not stress him more(it's doubtful that Shinji would had accepted to participate in an operation where it's guaranteed that he'll to fight his former comrades)

---
One last thing, before Monk Ed flashes his scalpel, is Lilith as a trigger still applicable? If an Angel makes contact with Lilith, an Impact begins right? Well an Angel did make contact with her, so shouldn't that be a no-brainer? I wouldn't be surprised if it did, just look at the large crack in the ceiling of her chamber where Mari is sniping, it would probably be one of the four parts of the cross on the circumference found on the vortexes.

Well, an Impact did happened in Lilith's Chamber, Kaworu explicitly said that it was the epicenter of Third Impact. Now we don't know if Lilith's corpse is still Impact material, her state of rot suggest that it isn't the case, but the 12th Angel still mutated into a giant Rei head and later a giant fetus when it entered in contact with Lilith's LCL. It could be that it absorbed her FoK and changed in accordance. (maybe like Zeruel did?)
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby wiser3754 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:28 am

That sphere with the six crosses (not four, two vertical, four horizontal) it's been suggested already that the bridge scene at the end of 3.0 is actually the interior of that Sphere that Gendo and Kozo currently occupy and was the 'Vessel' that held the souls/beings that was SEELE.

If true, how in the world can WILLE possibly find it since it's incredibly reclusive and seems to only appear in the most rarest (and worst apparently) of events?

Also, it has six crosses and are connected to a central point, the Sphere. Can anyone agree that those crosses are extensions of the six monoliths with the sphere being utilised by SEELE 01?
I watch and speculate.

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Postby ElMariachi » Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:57 am

^
I don't think SEELE has anything to do with the mysterious object in the Door, Gendo wanted to get rid of them, to kill them for good so he could take over with his army of MP-Evas and trigger his version of Instrumentality.

We probably won't ear of SEELE in FINAL anymore, except some mention in passing that they are dead or what was their plans 14 years ago.

Besides, there are seven SEELE monoliths, not six.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby wiser3754 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:22 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:^
I don't think SEELE has anything to do with the mysterious object in the Door, Gendo wanted to get rid of them, to kill them for good so he could take over with his army of MP-Evas and trigger his version of Instrumentality.

We probably won't ear of SEELE in FINAL anymore, except some mention in passing that they are dead or what was their plans 14 years ago.

Besides, there are seven SEELE monoliths, not six.


You're sure? The bridge they stand in looks spherical, not to mention the room Gendo was levitating in when saying farewell to SEELE is also similar. Also, when kozo inspects the 'mess' of N4I he's looking through a monitor as no transparency (windows) to the outside world is present.

Yes, there's seven monoliths, I was saying that the 'Eye' had six crosses (for SEELE 02 - 07) with the sphere being controlled by Seele 01.
I watch and speculate.

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:12 am

^
But why would Gendo use a structure directly controlled by SEELE? He just betrayed them and their scenario for HIP, that would be a death sentence for him!
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby wiser3754 » Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:56 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:^
But why would Gendo use a structure directly controlled by SEELE? He just betrayed them and their scenario for HIP, that would be a death sentence for him!


SEELE sound pleased when they realize their plan has come to fruition before Kozo disconnects their life support, and the scene occurs just before EVA-13 is awoken. Where's the threat?
I watch and speculate.

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:12 am

^
Well, in your theory, it sounds like the SEELE souls relocated inside the big structure inside the Door of Guf... where Gendo and Fuyu maybe relocated at the end of 3.0.

So there would be a risk that SEELE notice that Fourth Impact was aborted and get hardcore pissed.
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Re: Whaaaaats behind Doors of Guf number 2!? [cue lights]

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Postby Telperion » Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:28 pm

Since the Room of Guf is the chamber where God stores all the souls that will ever be (its emptying the reason Humanity's birthrate had dropped off, why clones of Rei were needed to host existing souls, why children of 14 yrs old were the only ones left who could pilot Eva's, etc...) and because they call the rainbow taurus the Doors of Guf I'm tempted to say it is the manifestation of the Room of Guf itself... or some other aspect of Heaven.


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