Signer wrote:And in this universe with artificial gods, even if Rei was dead, not doing anything is not acceptance of reality - it just not caring enough.

Is this your own personal philosophy, or is there anything in the narrative that actually supports it? The idea that using the powers of the gods for selfish personal reasons* (like, say, not having to deal with the consequences of your actions) is a Bad Thing that can only result in Bad Things is not, as far as I know, all that strange a notion. Perhaps it's the current culture of entitlement, lack of humility, and loss of perspective that makes it seem that way.

* Rei was fine with dying. She had made her decision before she charged the Angel with the bomb. This was about Shinji and his survivor's guilt.

I'll just say I'm going to be VERY disappointed if in the final summation Rebuild's message is just "You can't win, so don't try".

Reichu wrote:Is this your own personal philosophy, or is there anything in the narrative that actually supports it? The idea that using the powers of the gods for selfish personal reasons* (like, say, not having to deal with the consequences of your actions) is a Bad Thing that can only result in Bad Things is not, as far as I know, all that strange a notion. Perhaps it's the current culture of entitlement, lack of humility, and loss of perspective that makes it seem that way.

Personal philosophy. But there is and was all that talk about "will to live", that is kinda incompatible with acceptance of death. Everyone already uses EVAs and if Anno wanted it to be about selflessness, he would be more persuasive than "don't want things for yourself - humanoid robots may make it true!" just before Misato gives her favorite walking bomb to the enemy of humanity. The whole idea of using bad things in fantastic universe to teach people what they should do (like "Shinji should listen to people, because Kaworu told him to pull the spears!") seems to me less like Anno, than any amount of GARness.

Reichu wrote:* Rei was fine with dying. She had made her decision before she charged the Angel with the bomb. This was about Shinji and his survivor's guilt.

Yeah, such a coincidence, that decisions to die are often made in dangerous circumstances. Rei decided to help Shinji, so there is no point in dying, if it won't help him.
Anyway, what I think will happen, is Rei will come out of 01 merged with Yui, kill Rei Q, lead Nerv's army to victory and live with Shinji and Gendo forever on desert planet, because being with people important to you is more important than happiness, or something.

Signer wrote:But there is and was all that talk about "will to live", that is kinda incompatible with acceptance of death.

Perhaps you can be more specific?

The whole idea of using bad things in fantastic universe to teach people what they should do (...) seems to me less like Anno, than any amount of GARness.

I can't make any sense out of this claim. NGE's ending(s) were pretty much entirely Anno doing this.

NemZ wrote:I'll just say I'm going to be VERY disappointed if in the final summation Rebuild's message is just "You can't win, so don't try".

Nah. It will be some pointlessly esoteric conclusion, that no one will really understand, but a group of self proclaimed experts will claim they do, and will look down on everyone who disagrees, while insulting their intelligence. So kinda like now, but with renewed vigor :P

Reichu wrote:Perhaps you can be more specific?

I can remember only one place in NTE, where it was said explicitly: "Where will a story of people who want to live lead to?" in preview of Q after 2.0. But Misato repeatedly mentioned "will to live" in NGE and considering her organization called "Will" I assume that Anno doesn't really want to dissuade people from saving each other. And that would mean that Shinji was right in saving Rei and Q was more about despair of failue than shame of doing something wrong.

Reichu wrote:I can't make any sense out of this claim. NGE's ending(s) were pretty much entirely Anno doing this.

I don't mean Anno doesn't use tragic events at all - they certainly serve emotional purpose. But other than the scene with Gendo and Yui in EoE, where he talks about importance of openness about one's plan to destroy the world, I can't remember situations, where success in world-changing events is presented as reason for something - it's not like SEELE would drop their plan, if Shinji decided to value himself unconditionally.

Signer wrote:I can remember only one place in NTE, where it was said explicitly: "Where will a story of people who want to live lead to?" in preview of Q after 2.0. But Misato repeatedly mentioned "will to live" in NGE and considering her organization called "Will" I assume that Anno doesn't really want to dissuade people from saving each other. And that would mean that Shinji was right in saving Rei and Q was more about despair of failue than shame of doing something wrong.

There is quite an enormous difference between those who are still alive and wishing to stay that way, and giving up everything for those who are already gone. You talk about "will to live", but Shinji says on-screen, in no uncertain terms, that he doesn't care about himself or the world, so long as... er... he can rescue a dead girl?* Perhaps you can also explain why, If Anno actually wanted to say, "Shinji is totally doing the right thing", Shinji's efforts result in: the imminent end of the world, his own consciousness going total hikikkomori in Eva-01 (for the next 15 years, at that), and Rei's soul just trading one tomb for another.

If you're actually interested in Anno's message, it might be better to pay attention to everything in the films themselves, rather than clutching at straws (a single phrase in the preview and the previous anime series). What Kaji talks to Shinji about earlier in 2.0 is especially worth another look.

* If the parallels to Gendo weren't obvious enough then, 3.0 has Fuyutsuki spell it out even more.

^ I'll just repeat the mantra I've been saying about the series for almost a decade now....

Screw the post-credit teasers!


Those stupid 30 second teasers have done far more harm than good when it comes to intelligent discussion about the four Rebuild films. Too many people take them as concrete summations of what to expect the next film will feature & be about thematically. They don't really matter. All they are in the long run are 1) Cute references to the original TV series & 2) A very loose sketch of what the team THINKS they MIGHT tackle in the following movie before the writing process has even started.

Reichu wrote:There is quite an enormous difference between those who are still alive and wishing to stay that way, and giving up everything for those who are already gone. You talk about "will to live", but Shinji says on-screen, in no uncertain terms, that he doesn't care about himself or the world, so long as... er... he can rescue a dead girl?*

Well, I'm not sure how mutual self-sacrificing rescue relates to old "don't become too close" idea, but "don't give up everything" looks more believable as a message. Except it already was in NGE and what, Q becomes "Let's see how you don't care about world now"? That way at least it would be about Shinji's mistake about what he values, and not about proper control of all-powerful beings. I guess saying "will to live is will to do something" would be stretching it^^. But it still fits in broader pro-egoistic theme, that Misato supports with her encouragement of Shinji to do something not for someone else (yes, she doesn't like consequences, but still supports the idea). And Rei is not dead.

Reichu wrote:Perhaps you can also explain why, If Anno actually wanted to say, "Shinji is totally doing the right thing", Shinji's efforts result in: the imminent end of the world, his own consciousness going total hikikkomori in Eva-01 (for the next 15 years, at that), and Rei's soul just trading one tomb for another.

I think "because the world is not fair and, like Fuyutsuki said, it is easier to break" is not worse than "because it would hurt more that way" as explanation for why bringing Rei back worked at all.

Reichu wrote:If you're actually interested in Anno's message, it might be better to pay attention to everything in the films themselves, rather than clutching at straws (a single phrase in the preview and the previous anime series). What Kaji talks to Shinji about earlier in 2.0 is especially worth another look.

I assume it is not about that part, where Kaji tells to protect the girl, so "bad things make kind people", "proof of living" and "not only you, but also my girl"? Shinji helped to create a lot of kindness then. Seriously, "proof of living" sounds exactly like old ideas of will to live as apposed to nothingness. And yes, previous series is different work, but it doesn't mean that Anno now thinks that everything he said in NGE is wrong.

Reichu wrote:* If the parallels to Gendo weren't obvious enough then, 3.0 has Fuyutsuki spell it out even more.

Shinji saves Rei after that train-sequence, there he told to try to understand his father. So assuming train-dwellers are on the good side, I would say it more a plus for Gendo.

I think Reichu is referring to the aquarium conversation where Kaji suggests the living have a duty to carry out the wishes of those who died for them. However I don't think she's thought this through fully because Rei's will was for Shinji and Gendo to get along, so it wasn't wrong at all to abandon Wille and cause another impact because that's the role his father asks of him.

NemZ wrote:I think Reichu is referring to the aquarium conversation where Kaji suggests the living have a duty to carry out the wishes of those who died for them.

I'm referring in part to that conversation, yes.

Kaji:
Being a survivor leaves you with a lot of baggage.
You have to accept their loss and pick up where they left off.
If you're the sole survivor, all the more so.
You're not the only one who's hurting.

Suffice it to say, he didn't go with Provisional Rei because he had accepted Rei's loss and was trying to pick up the pieces. He went with her because he refused to accept, same as before, that Rei had died. And I sort of doubt agreeing to pilot Eva-13 had anything to do with fulfilling Rei's will. There's absolutely nothing in the narrative that remotely suggests it -- quite the contrary, really.

In the real world that's solid advice because there's really nothing else to be done, but in the eva universe that isn't the case; souls are measurable quantities that can be interacted with after death. Shinji actually succeeded in reconnecting with Rei after her death so no, it's actually not unreasonable to refuse to just accept it and move on. Kaji is factually wrong and Gendo, like it or not, does have a point. Whether or not it's worth the costs involved is another matter entirely. Personally though, I think the only reason impacts turn out so bad is because people keep stopping them when they're only halfway done.

What Rei wanted most of all was for Shinji and Gendo to reconcile. At this point they both want to save someone and coincidentally both are in the same place, so it makes sense for them to still end up on the same side of the argument. Even though it didn't work out, Kaworu was completely on board with a plan to cause an impact in order to fix what had been broken so his will is also still compatible with putting Shinji and Gendo in alignment.

NemZ wrote:In the real world that's solid advice because there's really nothing else to be done, but in the eva universe that isn't the case; souls are measurable quantities that can be interacted with after death. Shinji actually succeeded in reconnecting with Rei after her death so no, it's actually not unreasonable to refuse to just accept it and move on.

But if Shinji were to refuse, that would go against Anno's logic of escapism and lack of care about the real world being a bad thing

You're confusing our world with Shinji's; It's not an escapist fantasy when the possibility is actually real.

The value of the real world is a point on which I disagree with Anno. If there was a viable alternative I'd certainly consider jumping ship.

So, you're saying that if given an alternitive to life, you'd take it? in other words, giving up on life. There's something i reccall that is quite similar, and i can't quite determine on what exactly it is

There are currently two options, life and death, with life in the vast majority of cases being preferable. That doesn't however mean life is particularly great, it's just not the worst. If other possibilities existed then the relative values of each would need to be evaluated on their own merits and it's not a sure thing life would be the best option anymore.

Arcadia's legacy wrote:So, you're saying that if given an alternitive to life, you'd take it? in other words, giving up on life. There's something i reccall that is quite similar, and i can't quite determine on what exactly it is

Not quite. If there are viable alternatives to life, then suicide is not the proper analogy. It's like giving up one job to pursue another, or any other fork-in-the-road choice one may make. In EoE, suicide is a proper analogy for Instrumentality because it involves losing one's individual self, but who's to say that's the only legitimate use for the concept of Instrumentality? EoTV's Instrumentality can be viewed from a transcendental standpoint. It all depends on the context in which Instrumentality is used for the narrative.

As I've said, an alternative would simply defy the ideas Anno's been trying so hard to teach us with his stories. In the end, life is worth living for it is the negatives of pain and sadness that allow the positives of our most treasured memories to be appreciated at all. If a world were to exist that was nothing but good memories, what point would there be in either treasuring or appreciating them?

Simply put, anything worth having is only worth having so long as there is a risk of it being lost

^That's nice, but nobody has debated that point.

NemZ said simply that if there were viable alternatives to life, he'd consider it. You claimed this stance is equal to suicide. It is not.

Going back to speaking in terms of Eva, NemZ has a point that the narrative suggested the possibility of saving Rei. Since it's possible within the context of the Eva universe, choosing said possibility is not escapism, though, perhaps it may be a very different sort of problem. Rebuild as a whole seems less interested in the problems of escapism as it with dealing with consequences of actions.

Shinji knows absolutely nothing about souls and would have zero reason to think the dead can be "saved". Had he somehow known this in advance, then perhaps you and NemZ would have a point.

In any event, Anno's personal philosophies are quite relevant insofar as they determine whether or not Rei is coming back. Seems like plain wishful thinking to assume or even hope she'll be returning as anything but a ghost.