[TV] A Game of Thrones

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Postby unz » Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:22 pm

Ignoring the old eva I remember Asuka feeling dismembered and terrorized but Q is this prophecy to fullfill a gay angel gives Shinji near the end about fate guiding him and all that (which happens in the final scene). Even the beginning of the movie plays "God's Message" at some point. Like, Shinji's back to only taking decisions to instrumentilize (is this a word?) others.
How would Shinji's arc play in got is beyond me, you have starks and every northern telling you winter is coming over and over making shit grimmer, should've gone for the books.
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Postby NemZ » Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:51 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:As a simple point of comparison, no one in Eva's cast has been raped.


Ritsuko. Asuka and Rei would probably both count as well. And that's the privileged few... I expect there's still plenty of raping going on in the world post 2I outside of Nerv. Post 3I all bets are off.
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Postby Chuckman » Sat Nov 07, 2015 6:18 pm

So many red herrings. "Winter is Coming" is a comment about the weather or the northerly version of valar morghulis, it's a threat.

Edit: Have any of you read the original proposal?

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Postby Ray » Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:13 pm

Somehow becomes king and has sloppy makeouts with Daenerys,


Which would be really awkward if

Potential  SPOILER: Show
R+L=J is true. We'd have another Cersei and Jaime on our hands. Which would likely spill into an especially tragic ending for GOT if that did happen.


The worst he has to look forward to is being shunned for being an idiot, being stuck piloting Eva again to save the world, and being subjected to some sort of mind screw a la EoE.


Getting a bomb placed around his neck, being hated by the entirety of the human race for screwing them over for a clone of his mother. All of his friends being dead and/or twisted parodies of their former selves? Having every emotional bridge and connection burnt away because of a fourteen year absence? Having his entire life and childhood ruined all before he's old enough to legally drink? Yeah! That's a happy fun time, that'll no doubt have a positive ending!

With Jon Snow, his family ONLY died. With maybe the exception of his (not really) mother. He's never been rejected by his family, they don't mistreat him for being a bastard, and overall Jon Snow's mistakes don't Spiral into instantaneous world ending Chaos like Shinji's do. Jon Snow volunteered for the Watch, he wasn't bullied or guilted into joining it like Shinji was when it came to the Eva. Jon was more or less an adult who knew what he was getting himself into, and he was prepared to suffer the consequences for his actions. Shinji wasn't.

So you think GOT lacks ambition, like discussing a problem and giving answers.


Exactly. Eva might be tragic, but at least it's tragic with a purpose. Game Of Thrones on the other hand, quite a bit of tragedy it still has potential to be more than just tragedy. But so far? Aside from the prophecies giving us slivers of hope, there really isn't much to hope for.

But I've made the commitment, so I'm stuck with it.

As much as I enjoy both, I have to say that for the most part, Eva and GOT are guilty of the cardinal sin of completely missing the point of the Genre's they claim to represent. Fantasy (in general, not just Tolkien-esque High fantasy) is a genre that I believe should be inherently the opposite of gritty and realistic. Should GRR Martin and Joe Abercrombie really showcase rape, blood feuds, and Incest in the same world where Ice Orcs, Dragons, and Sorcery exists just because JRR Tolkien and CS Lewis didn't? Should Anno really showcase the trauma real teenagers piloting Giant Robots fighting aliens would deal with just because other Giant Robot shows like Ultraman, Power Rangers, and majority of the Gundam franchise doesn't? Should Alan Moore and Garth Ennis really show how horrible Superheroes would be for humanity just because Stan Lee and Siegel and Shuster didn't?

Given the authors' comments on the matter I know which setting leaves me with more hope for a decent ending, and it sure as hell ain't Westeros. I'm going with the guy whose personal heroes are Godzilla and Ulttraman.


Well, If we're going by a creators influences. Then Game of Thrones is VERY Hopeful. Martin's personal heroes are Robert E Howard, Tolkien and he's said he's a big fan of Marvel Comics and superheroes in General. Why do you think he named the main 'good guys' of his Magnum Opus, The Starks?

Quick Aside. Have you noticed that the more lighthearted a creators influences are, the more inherently effed up their own personal works are?

Tarantino's favorite movie is Toy Story. He directs Reservoir Dogs and Django Unchained. Kubrick was best friends with Spielberg, but his own movies are dark and borderline nihilistic. Alan Moore's favorite superhero is Superman, he writes stories about how horrible Superheroes would be if they actually existed in a realistic setting. Anno is a fan of Sentai Superhero shows and giant robot Anime, he makes his magnum opus about how horrible and traumatizing teenager piloting Giant robots fighting monsters ALA power rangers would be in a semi-realistic setting, and essentially give a big middle finger to everyone who enjoys escapist entertainment like that.

I've already stated my opinion on how I think Rebuild will end on other threads. No need to reiterate it here.

Not to mention indoor plumbing and AC on demand: it's easy to forget that, even in the most craptastic of sci-fi settings, things are generally a lot better all around than they tend to be in even the best of fantasy settings.


Sure! Because a better standard of living instantly equals happiness! By that Logic, 1984 was Disneyland because they had flushing toilets and didn't have to dig a hole in the ground!

"Gee living in Mussolini's Italy is horrible! But at least I have plumbing and aren't living in a hut in Africa in fear of dying of Ebola and/or the Local Warlord!"

That's messed up. You're basically saying we shouldn't hope for horrible settings to be better than they are because 'hey! At least it's better than it was before! and at least it's not an even worse setting!"

But that's another argument for another thread.
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:57 pm

"Gee living in Mussolini's Italy is horrible! But at least I have plumbing and aren't living in a hut in Africa in fear of dying of Ebola and/or the Local Warlord!"


Well...yeah. Why do you think people tolerate otherwise intolerable governments? It's not just fear: it's because the people that matter get the things they need.

And frankly, there is a difference in comparison: I mean, if the choice was living as smalfolk in a world where I could be robbed or skinned at any moment for the amusement of some psychopath (and probably not live past the age of thirty-five or forty either way...), or live in a world where the biosphere was destroyed but we still have the technology and support structure to deploy a fleet of warships AND the Wunder? Hell yeah, that's not a hard choice.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Postby A.T. Fish » Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:46 pm

I don't get this idea that the merit of a story is tied to how positive its message is. It's ok not to like a more pessimistic view on things but criticizing a show because it failed to meet your standards of how hopeful a story should be is unreasonable.

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Postby Chuckman » Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:14 am

I think pessimistic is the wrong word. The books aren't pessimistic so much as they take a sharp look at the ideological underpinnings of fantasy fiction, which like comic books is pretty much a fascist power fantasy. The funny part is that the result of this deconstruction comes out a lot like Robert E. Howard, who was hardly, ah, liberal.

The show is sensationalism, pure and simple. They take the cheap path and play to an audience that's casually invested in the show and not peering into it for tiny nuances (this isn't a critique of such people, it's simply the reality of television writing.

For Season five they could have used Sansa as an anchor character for the tension and intrigue in Winterfell found in the books, but for the show's purposes it's cheaper to rape her. I mean that in a literal dollars and cents way: To approximate the situation in Winterfell in the book they'd have to hire named actors for speaking parts and have a lot of people talking and glaring at each other. The arc written into season five requires no new actors to be hired, which is a major expense, and allows the re-use of existing sets.

Myself I'd rather they cut down or trimmed Dorne. The show makes some bizarre production decisions sometimes. They went to great effort and expense to film at the Alhambra for very little benefit and the tight shooting schedule meant that the Dorne fighting scenes and some other bits all had to be done in one day. For some parts of that you're watching a first or second take and the actresses didn't have time to practice their weapon moves.

Also, they're starting to get lazy on the scripts. They promoted a writing assistant to the staff last season and every episode he's credit on has shitty dialogue in it. The guy got promoted for suggesting that Olly kill Ygritte, like that was his idea. A better writer's room would have pointed out that Olly killing Ygritte is the most dumb cliche thing that could happen, but they liked it and promoted the guy.

I mean, look at this line:

"You want the good girl, but you need the bad pussy"

How did that get through editing? Seriously, that's terrible. Nobody would say that and anybody who heard it would say, "why would I want bad pussy?" the meaning is clear but the delivery is so bizarre and dumb that it just knocks the moment right out.

Two seconds in editing:

"You want the good girl's castle but you need the bad girl's pussy".

Boom, done, makes sense, gets the point across, fits the characters, go make the scene. God.

Coming back around to the point, my biggest gripe about the show is that it colors people's perceptions of the book.

Some worse shit happens in the books, but it's handled very delicately and takes place off page, or is implied. There's still debate over whether Theon's penis was removed in the book, for example. The show made it a cheap joke.

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Postby Ray » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:45 am

I think pessimistic is the wrong word. The books aren't pessimistic so much as they take a sharp look at the ideological underpinnings of fantasy fiction, which like comic books is pretty much a fascist power fantasy.


Isn't that just as bad as a reducto ad hominem? Are people these days so disenchanted with any kind of idealism that they'll just dismiss an entire genre as facist?

The funny part is that the result of this deconstruction comes out a lot like Robert E. Howard, who was hardly, ah, liberal.


That's up for debate. . . Especially when you look at the differences between Howard and Martins approach when it comes to their two greatest works.

Game Of Thrones, owes a lot to Conan The Cimmerian. In terms of paving the ground for Fantasy authors down the line. But Conan and Thrones seem to have opposite methods of operating.

Conan, while not at all a 'good person' by modern standards (or even Game Of Thrones Standards). He is at the very least better than the people he fights, he murders, sleeps around, but compared to the petty tyrants, demigods, sorceresses, and Lovecraftian horrors he fights on a regular basis, he's the least of all evils. He's not a good person by any stretch, but he has a code of chivalry he follows regardless of what monster he faces. Howard wasn't perfect by any stretch (he was pen pals with notorious racist HP Lovecraft), but his stories were a lot less grim overall than Martin's. As bad as Conan could be, you could always tell who the real bad guy in his stories were.

Thrones on the other hand. . . as is obvious, is a lot more morally ambiguous. With the exception of the Boltons, noone is really 'evil'. Everyone is complex, everyone has hidden motivations, everyone desires the best for their loved ones, or kingdom, or justice, and it becomes hard to tell who the good guys and the bad guys are overall. Even the Walkers, the closest the series has had to a force of absolute evil.

There is also the issue of narrative tension. Conan could face Satan himself, and you'd be absolutely certain there will be another book about him coming out in a month. Martin himself criticized stories like that focusing around a singular protagonist, saying that they take away any sense of stakes or narrative tension. The readers aren't afraid for Conan, because they know he will win against the monster of the week. But you're afraid for characters in thrones, because there is no guarantee anyone will be living to see the next book or episode.
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Postby Stillborn » Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:16 am

View Original PostRay wrote:Thrones on the other hand. . . as is obvious, is a lot more morally ambiguous. With the exception of the Boltons, noone is really 'evil'. Everyone is complex, everyone has hidden motivations, everyone desires the best for their loved ones, or kingdom, or justice, and it becomes hard to tell who the good guys and the bad guys are overall. Even the Walkers, the closest the series has had to a force of absolute evil.


That's the point. There are no simple people. Everyone is complex. Everyone is special...

And when everyone is special then no one is. Until everything becomes "meh, who cares". If everyone is equally evil or good, than who cares who win or survives if their motivations are all equaly valid and important.
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:52 am

View Original PostA.T. Fish wrote:I don't get this idea that the merit of a story is tied to how positive its message is. It's ok not to like a more pessimistic view on things but criticizing a show because it failed to meet your standards of how hopeful a story should be is unreasonable.


It has nothing to do with pessimism, so much as exhaustion: it's like having a show be nothing but sugar and gumdrops. There's a point when the over-optimism becomes unrealistic and suffocating.

It's about balance: you have to be able to balance the stories you're telling, or you're going to have a hard time ultimately selling the outcome of said story.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Postby unz » Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:21 am

Just skimming through while at work but ATFish' post is ace and could be even better, the message is just that Ray otherwise you'll just buy the next must read crap with a message you can share but which ultimately is a product to exploit forever while never achieving shit. Granted, half of the names you want to quote were dick people you don't want to worship through their work while still growing an appreciation for what they achieved (just like with any author ever, why worshipping to begin with).

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Postby NemZ » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:55 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:That's the point. There are no simple people. Everyone is complex. Everyone is special...

And when everyone is special then no one is. Until everything becomes "meh, who cares". If everyone is equally evil or good, than who cares who win or survives if their motivations are all equaly valid and important.


There very clearly still are people who are special and those who are not (namely, narrator characters). Just because the characters live in a grey and black world doesn't mean we still can't find people to root for... it just takes more thought and consideration of circumstances. Arya for example is a gleeful murderer now and training to be a professional assassin, yet because she's only screwing with people who deserve it so far we can have her back. Surely eventually she'll be asked to kill someone who doesn't deserve it or isn't asking for death though, and that will be interesting to see how she deals.
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Postby Chuckman » Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:13 pm

Again, every one of the surviving character's arc has a hope spot:

SPOILER: Show
Arya can never truly be no one because of her connection to Nymeria.

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Postby Blue Monday » Sun Jan 03, 2016 2:32 am

There was discussion of it before but Martin's confirmed that The Winds of Winter won't be finished before the next season of Game of Thrones hits, meaning that the show is going to spoil things that A Song of Ice and Fire hasn't gotten to yet. Sucks because it's going to be hard avoiding that shit. Here's a link to an article: http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/01/02/ ... -released/
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Postby Ray » Sun Jan 03, 2016 2:43 am

If you want something Awesome to tithe you over. Go to the fanart thread.
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
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Postby Chuckman » Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:28 pm

Take my hand and stop giving a shit about spoilers.

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Postby Reichu » Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:20 pm

Who else is hype for this Sunday? Just finished rewatching Season 5 tonight, and what I've heard about 6 so far makes me "very excite". The next couple of days are going to be tough... (hashtag first world problems)

Some points, which may or may not have been covered already, but I'm too lazy to check.

- So despite HBO and crew's adamant denial, the chances of Lord Snow actually staying dead are, what? A fraction of 1%? Are they really fooling anyone here?
- Where the hell was Ghost while Jon was being stabbed? Was he chained up by the budget again? If the mutineers had restrained him beforehand, maybe they could have, you know, actually showed this. Not like it would have really given anything away, what with how thickly Jon's misfortune was being projected all season long.
- While watching S5 with my boyfriend, he kept on complaining about how the Sons of the Harpy were able to consistently get the upper hand against the Unsullied. That is: noblemen in masks should have no edge whatsoever against what are supposedly the greatest soldiers in Westeros. Valid complaint, or not?

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Postby NemZ » Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:47 pm

The unsullied were trained to fight as units in open field combat, not as police forces in a hostile occupied city. They are good at following orders and maintaining discipline, but that routine and lack of individual creativity makes them pretty easy to predict and plan for. It's not unreasonable for them to be taken off guard, but it is somewhat annoying for random nobodies to keep up with or surpass them in fights if the ambush tactic fails.
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Postby A.T. Fish » Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:57 am

That's just a plot demand, whoever needs to win the fight to make the story more interesting will win. How else can you explain a dwarf surviving multiple conflict situations with armed soldiers and even killing them sometimes?

I'm more annoyed by the blatant miscasting of Grey Worm. Supposedly he's been trained as a soldier for most of his life but has the body type of someone who doesn't exercise at all.

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Postby Reichu » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:27 am

View Original PostA.T. Fish wrote:I'm more annoyed by the blatant miscasting of Grey Worm. Supposedly he's been trained as a soldier for most of his life but has the body type of someone who doesn't exercise at all.

What are male soldiers who were castrated in childhood supposed to look like?


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