Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby Reichu » Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:41 am

Essential got the date right from the movie. As for the whole "just looks suspiciously like Shinji/Asuka/etc." thing, that's not actually anything new, either. The same thing was done in the booklet for S2 Works. "A boy who looks like Shinji..." and so forth.

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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby Neil-T » Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:58 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:The same thing was done in the booklet for S2 Works. "A boy who looks like Shinji..." and so forth.


Didn't realise that, Reichu. I stand corrected. ^_^

I guess I should have been referring to the writers of the S2 Works CD booklet as being mischievous, then!
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby Neil-T » Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:10 am

I must say that I like mammaluser's stance of alternate universes, especially for going as far as to include the games.

I also like BlueBasilisk's point about how this works in other franchises.

I'd have to concede as well that his point about Mari's appearance in the manga will probably be proved right in the end.

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:Mari showing up in the manga is little more than fan service and a fun little egg for people who have watched the movies.


Wouldn't it be fun, though, if Sadamoto knew something that Anno knows but that we all don't. Yet.
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:12 pm

I'm sure he knows lots of things that we don't! It's just a question of whether or not any of those things are relevant to Mari's character or the story. Anno said they went through a lot of ideas for Mari's character while they were drafting 2.0. I wonder if Manga Mari's story might be a cast off idea that Sadamoto particularly liked?

Anima also shares a lot of ideas with the movies (and vice-versa), but the shared ideas are usually used in very different ways.
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby mammaluser » Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:28 pm

He sure knows a lot of stuff xD, he even created some of the stuff that we saw on the tv series, regarding what BlueBassilisk comment, id say that it's very interesting and maybe she is one of Anno's early drafts of Mari.
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby Neil-T » Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:17 am

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:It's just a question of whether or not any of those things are relevant to Mari's character or the story.


That's exactly what I'm hinting at, BlueBasilisk. ;)

I guess we'll just have to wait for 3.0+1.0 and see.

What are the chances, do you think, that Sadamoto has the inside story on Mari, and that we're seeing it in the manga first as a teaser? Too far-fetched?
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:36 pm

He might, but I think we can safely rule out a connection between the Rebuild Mari and the one in the manga chapter for two reasons:

1) Time. Mari was 16 in the bonus chapter, which was set in 1998. We don't know when Second Impact happened or when the Eva series was built in the movies, but Yui's control system experiment with Unit 01 happened in 2004. Mari would be 22 before the Evas even existed, so even if they would accept her as an adult, she's still pretty clearly a teenager in Rebuild. She's more developed and full-bodied compared to Asuka and Rei, but it's more obvious when she's drawn next to adults like Misato.

2) Mari says she's never synchronized with or piloted an Eva before they sent her out in Unit 05. "This is my first time," "I finally get to pilot something," "synchronizing is even more intense than they told me," etc.

There's really no way Mari could be one of Yui's contemporaries afflicted with the Evas' curse given what we know about her. If there are any juicy bits, then I think there's a good chance Sadamoto does know them, but what I took away from the 2.0 CRC development interviews and Maaya Sakamoto's 3.0 cast interview is that Mari's a straightforward character who isn't hiding any big twists. She's the first junior member of the Kaji Club, she's another pilot who's there to rankle and butt heads with Asuka, and she gives Shinji helpful life advice. That much is consistent across the drafts they discuss. But Eva's a chaotic creation, so who knows, it could have changed by now!
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby Neil-T » Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:15 am

That's a solid argument, BlueBasilisk. I like it!

Yeah, those are definitely the sticking points. I've been trying to play devil's advocate with it a bit here, but it becomes increasingly difficult to reconcile when you lay it out as succinctly as that.

It would take something really unexpected in 3.0+1.0 to make it fit now!
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby Kouzou » Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:59 pm

View Original PostNeil-T wrote:First, apologies for veering off the topic of the manga for a moment here.



My own personal view is that, as an encyclopaedia of Neon Genesis-era Eva, the Essential Evangelion Chronicle books aim to cover everything presented to the audience, including the rehearsal scene from Death & Rebirth.

Since it doesn't fit logically into the timeline, the easiest way out for the writers would be just to ignore it, but maybe that would be too easy! So the question becomes how to include it.

The writers must have decided that the best way was to sneak it in through a little vagueness. The finished article is delivered to the reader with a straight face, in my opinion, and is intended to be enigmatic and mysterious.

Of course, behind the scenes, the writers were no doubt very aware of what they were doing and how it might be received by fans. But a bit of controversy is always good fun in Evangelion!

I partially agree. The writers knew, despite intention, how Shinji and Kaworu appeared in contrast to how they actually are, and Anno himself addressed this in 2 Interviews with June, laughing about it. Are they gay? Nope. Does Gainax love messing around with the female fan base(mostly Yaoi fans) in terms of Eva? Yep lol That being said, Anno has the final say, and can also retcon if he ever chooses to do so.
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby Neil-T » Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:15 am

View Original PostKouzou wrote:Anno has the final say, and can also retcon if he ever chooses to do so.


Ah, retconning... That would put the cat among the pigeons!

Could it have already happened in Rebuild, I wonder? Take the contradictions between the end of 2.22 and the world seen in 3.33, added to the fan debate over Near Third Impact versus actual Third Impact, and the rumour that production on 3.0 was restarted from scratch. Could Anno have changed the setting to remove Kaworu's post-credits stoppage of Third Impact from the story?

Given that the post-credits 'preview' is quite possibly a write-off, can we absolutely rule it out?

(Sorry to go off-topic, and apologies if this has already been discussed elsewhere.)


*Edited to fix spelling mistake.
Last edited by Neil-T on Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:52 am

View Original PostNeil-T wrote:Given that the post-credits 'preview' is quite possibly a write-off, can we absolutely rule it out?

(Sorry to go off-topic, and apologies if this has already been discussed elsewhere.)
I don't recall any such discussion; what we had when Q came out was the stunned amazement that nothing bar an approximation to the Pirate Asuka snippet had materialized, and then collectively sitting back and -- like some of the fans at the early showings -- going "Nani kore!??". The bulk of the speculation about the next time preview in Ha had been pre-Q, including such remarks as

On the one hand, I'd like to argue that the staff wouldn't be so incompetent as to invalidate their next episode preview.

On the other hand, 2.0 kind of proves me wrong on the incompetence front, so I really am not sure if I should argue with you or not.
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby Reichu » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:38 pm

View Original PostNeil-T wrote:Given that the post-credits 'preview' is quite possibly a write-off, can we absolutely rule it out?

That would mean writing off Kaworu's weird comment about bringing Shinji happiness. But Kaworu directly referenced the fact that he said this in 3.0 before he died, so... Yeah, it's part of 2.0 and not going anywhere.

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Side issue: retconning in Rebuild?

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Postby Neil-T » Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:13 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:That would mean writing off Kaworu's weird comment about bringing Shinji happiness.


That's a very valid point.

it's part of 2.0 and not going anywhere.


I hope you're right, Reichu. I'd much prefer it that way. But if I can play devil's advocate again here for a moment...

Kaworu directly referenced the fact that he said this in 3.0 before he died


The audience did, but Shinji himself would not have heard Kaworu's initial promise in 2.22 (most likely no character did), so Shinji is oblivious to the fact that Kaworu is referring back to to it here. The post-credits scene in 2.22 could, therefore, technically be retconned out of canon without affecting Shinji's perception.

I'm just addressing my concern that the seeming upheaval over 3.33's plot could conceivably be the result of Anno having had a change of heart. Rebuild is something of a long-term project after all.
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Re: Should Sadamoto's Manga Be Considered in part Canon to Eva's Original Series or the Rebuild??

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Postby mammaluser » Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:39 am

After watching 3.33 for the 11th time (in dub this time) it seems that altough it looks like Anno changed the original movie for the 3.33 that we have today... for me he didn't because it looks so detailed i mean whatever was the outcome that followed 2.22 ending was going to be detailed but 3.33 for me it's the beautiful film of all 3, to sum it all up i think that this was the film Anno wanted to gave us (in some way he will explain this i know c:)

PD: sorry, i didn't follow the original topic.
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Re: Side issue: retconning in Rebuild?

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Postby Reichu » Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:16 am

Neil-T: The "stinger" sequence is part of the movie. It is BUILT UP TO and cannot casually be removed. They show the Spear of Cassius on the Moon. They show Kaworu hanging out with Mark.06. They show Kaworu on Mark.06's head suiting up and uttering a mysterious one-liner. You know something is going to happen with them -- and it does. Kaworu referring back to it in 3.33 is just the icing on the cake.

I'm just addressing my concern that the seeming upheaval over 3.33's plot could conceivably be the result of Anno having had a change of heart. Rebuild is something of a long-term project after all.

I'm sure many changes of heart were had over the developmental period, but this would regard the films to come, not the ones already made!

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Re: Side issue: retconning in Rebuild?

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Postby Neil-T » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:52 am

I share mammaluser's concern over topic. I don't want to highjack Kouzou's thread or anything.

Would anyone be interested in continuing this discussion under a new topic?
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