Reichu wrote:Wonder what the logic is, then, of putting Eva-01 in orbit (Neo-Nerv's logo is on the container) and letting her fall in the hands of Wille. Even if everything they do is in accordance with the scenario, just seems like making things more complicated for the sake of making them more complicated... Well, I guess the same thing could be said for a lot about 3.0.

Seele may have forced Gendo's hand when it came to exiling Unit-01. It was a strategic sacrifice.

Well, Eva-01 still emitting high-density coreficating L-barrier, so maybe it was a question of creating a workable place around NERV HQ.

pwhodges wrote:And where is his wife? Getting Unit-01 surely remains crucial for Gendou.

Do we know that, though? The scenario this time around seems to be very different. I'm not sure Gendo's motives are the same now as they were before.

Putting Unit 01 in space keeps it safe from Wille's anti-Eva crusade and keeps Shinji out of Seele's hands. As long as he's in the core, they can't risk getting him back without putting Unit 01 back within Gendo's sphere of influence. Unit 01's kind of a liability for their plans now.

Bagheera wrote: Do we know that, though? The scenario this time around seems to be very different. I'm not sure Gendo's motives are the same now as they were before.

The scenario for Shinji and Rei was written before Yui "died" and her disappearance into Unit 01 seems to have been planned all along with this Gendo aware that it would happen. I really get the impression that he and Yui are working toward the same goal, whatever that is. He says they'll see each other again soon, so a reunion of some kind is evidently part of the end game.

What I don't get is where Unit 13 factors into his plan. He was adamant that they awaken Unit 01 as quickly as possible after Seele spilled the beans on Mark.06 and their goal was in sight when it did, but then in 3.0 he completely shifts focus to Unit 13 with no mention of Unit 01. What purpose does it serve when Unit 01 has Yui and Rei? Is it just a power source for the flying pyramid? If Unit 13 is actually the Key of Nebuchadnezzar, maybe it was part of the plan all along and circumstances pushed it back.

Eva-13 may have been simply a way of Gendo regaining Seele's trust and giving them a guarantee of their scenario combing to fruition after the mess 01 made. But Gendo was once again able to outwit them with both the spear change and counting on Wunder showing up

I'm pretty sure the extent of Unit-13's usefulness for Gendo has been had. He needed it to screw over Seele, which has now been done, so I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see it again in any significant capacity. Maybe a brief glimpse to show it being destroyed, since I don't think any Evas will be surviving Final and it hasn't been entirely dealt with as of yet (petrification a la the MPEs?).

But in the end of Q Gendo said, that awakening of Eva-13 was a part of his plan, so there probably would be some use for it in Final.

Plus Kaworu's soul is probably in there, and he and Shinji need to "meet" again.

Reichu wrote:Plus Kaworu's soul is probably in there,

The way we were shown Kaworu shooting off into infinite distance suggests otherwise to me, though I agree it's far from definitive.

pwhodges wrote:The way we were shown Kaworu shooting off into infinite distance suggests otherwise to me, though I agree it's far from definitive.

According to the "Kaworu in 13" idea: Kaworu was "shooting off" because the cut is from Shinji's POV. Shinji is in his plug, being shot at rapid speed away from Eva-13. (Can't say "infinite distance", BTW, just "distance".)

Sure I can say "infinite distance" if I want. I have in mind the possibility that the end of his move is not in our space-time.

pwhodges wrote:Sure I can say "infinite distance" if I want. I have in mind the possibility that the end of his move is not in our space-time.

Based on what? The cut directly follows the ejection of Shinji's plug. Hence, Kaworu receding because Shinji is moving away from him is a far more natural reading than... Kaworu suddenly moving into another space-time at that exact moment for [reasons]?

pwhodges wrote:Sure I can say "infinite distance" if I want. I have in mind the possibility that the end of his move is not in our space-time.

That makes at least as much sense as Quantum!Rei, so sure, why not?

Reichu wrote:Based on what? The cut directly follows the ejection of Shinji's plug. Hence, Kaworu receding because Shinji is moving away from him is a far more natural reading than... Kaworu suddenly moving into another space-time at that exact moment for [reasons]?

The way it's shown looks to me far more like a metaphysical move than simply a physical one, whether of Shinji or Kaworu (which would be a figurative move either way, as there is no way they could see each other at that point, and K's head is a bloody mess anyway). Kaworu could be heading for the Chamber of Guf, for instance, which I'm pretty damn sure doesn't have any space-time coordinates.

The order of things, once again:

-Shinji ejects from Eva-13
-Kaworu shown receding into distance

It doesn't make any particular sense to cut the film this way unless the enigmatic Kaworu shot follows directly from (i.e., is a logical result of) Shinji's ejection. How exactly does Kaworu entering the Guf (which is DIRECTLY ABOVE THEM, by the way...) accomplish this? I don't think it does. The direction of movement is clearly established, with Shinji as the one in motion away from Eva-13 and the remains of Kaworu. Using metaphysical imagery to show that Kaworu is being left behind makes sense for reasons yourself point out -- how else are they supposed to show it?

Reichu wrote:The direction of movement is clearly established, with Shinji as the one in motion

That is indeed logical, and even makes an otherwise puzzling shot less puzzling; but I wouldn't say it's clearly established in the shot itself, at least to the extent that I have failed to see that possibility in three years! But I see no reason to argue against your interpretation.