Is Shinji evil?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

Moderators: New Moderators, Board Staff

CyberXIII
Bardiel
Bardiel
User avatar
Age: 27
Posts: 782
Joined: Aug 22, 2008
Location: Eggmanland
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby CyberXIII » Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:05 am

Shinning isn't evil, just insane and in desperate need of help from someone who isn't evil, two-faced or as messed up as he is.
Gendo is thoroughly evil because he made him this way on purpose.
"Crapsack worlds and anti heroes have their place. Sometimes, they are very necessary. But an endless diet of dreary cyberpunk and dark fantasy won't do us any more favors than an endless feast of glurge. I'd argue that the cynical nature of these really hurt our ability to hope and work for better. It gets us to accept the hopelessness and jaded outlook of things as 'That's the way it is. I can't change it,' and stops us from fighting when we NEED to fight."

I am ask-shinji-ikari on tumblr.com. Feel free to ask me questions!

ChaddyManPrime
Test Subject
Test Subject
User avatar
Age: 31
Posts: 2893
Joined: Mar 25, 2014
Location: Peoria, AZ
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ChaddyManPrime » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:24 am

^
I'm blaming Yui too.
"Look at Me!, I'm Mr. MeeSeeks!" - Mr. MeeSeeks

You know nothing, Jon Snow - Chuckman

The Cruel
Ramiel
Ramiel
User avatar
Age: 24
Posts: 332
Joined: Feb 19, 2014
Location: Hope Disposal Plant
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby The Cruel » Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:09 am

Calling Shinji evil isn't appropriate. He is something in between. He does the right thing the wrong way. He is smitten by what he goes through, by being forced to make decisions which are too hard for a weak-minded guy like him and is always limited to his basic instincts when the going gets rough, either running away or to suffer for others which both are more or less dead ends. He made wrong hopes through others and ends up as the one responsible.

Through the decisions he makes, through the people he cares and despises, through his will and through the knowledge he gets, this all leads him to the point that makes him whole and aware about his worth and his place in this world. And making him so into the person he finaly becomes.
Last edited by The Cruel on Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
I carry out things right to the end. No. Matter. What.

My warning level: [1], Back to my Prestige Level, to keep the fight going. Thanks Reichu.

You can (not) hope

„Unfortunately, those other fools and idiots gave you the most worthless feeling. And that feeling is hope. The unicorn alive shitting a magic rainbow is but an illusion.“
-Doom Head, Rob Zombie's 31

„If you were a better person, you wouldn't be here.“
-Loading Screen, Spec Ops: The Line

„Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two conflicting ideas simultaneously.“
-Loading Screen, Spec Ops: The Line

„It takes a strong man to deny what's in front of him. And if the truth is undeniable, you create your own.“
-Colonel John Konrad, Spec Ops: The Line

„Through the darkness of future past,
the magician longs to see,
one chance out between two worlds.
Fire walk with me!“

-Bob, Twin Peaks

pwhodges
A Lilin in Wonderland
A Lilin in Wonderland
User avatar
Age: 72
Posts: 10208
Joined: Nov 18, 2012
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby pwhodges » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:05 am

View Original PostThe Cruel wrote:And making him so into the person he finally becomes.

Of whom (this being the Rebuild forum) we don't yet know anything!
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: Celebrating Radio Eva at 10 (details); Past avatars.
Can't wait for 3.0+1.0? - try Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

unitM
Ramiel
Ramiel
User avatar
Age: 28
Posts: 307
Joined: Jul 28, 2013

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby unitM » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:29 pm

I updated the OP and will try and respond to other thoughtful posts as I have more time to read and write.

xanderkh
Donor
Donor
User avatar
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sep 12, 2011
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby xanderkh » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:55 pm

Based on your recent addition to your OP, if we consider that Shinji needs to be held accountable for EVERY action that Shinji has done and all of the underlying consequences, then Shinji would probably go mad with inaction because there's not a single thing he could do that would NOT label him as evil, regardless of his circumstance.

Shinji scenario is essentially the living embodiment of the Kobyashi Maru, where there is NO winnable outcome that he can take that won't leave him unscathed. And if you apply your recent idea of him having to answer for EVERY consequence, whether consciously aware or not, then he indeed is classified as "evil".

But then again, if you apply that same mentality to us, the average joe, where we have to answer for every consequence, seen or unseen, then every one of us is evil in some way. It's just a matter of statistics and the butterfly effect.

Every action we take will always have a negative consequence on somebody no matter what we do; some small, like a text where you offend some random person on the internet, or something costly, like accidentally forgetting to restock medical supplies in a shift, and in the next shift, a patient dies, even though you weren't on duty.

If we have to consider every consequence for every action that we do, we'd all go mad with grief and be afraid to do anything without harming another or committing "evil". So saying whether or not Shinji should be considered "evil" just because he wasn't aware of the exact consequences of his actions is unfair to him, especially since he has no idea what's going on, and he's a pawn in another man's game. It breaks the message of the original series, where while he is somewhat partially responsible for 3I, if he is blame for everything, how does that fall in to Yui's message about finding happiness anywhere?

While I do agree that Shinji should be held accountable for his actions, that doesn't make him "evil"....just heavily misguided and lost, like so many other people struggling through life.

So in answer to your question, is Shinji Evil? Yes. Shinji is "evil", just as much as the rest of us are.
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

Stillborn
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 2466
Joined: Apr 28, 2013
Location: Huge wastebin
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Stillborn » Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:49 am

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:If we have to consider every consequence for every action that we do, we'd all go mad with grief and be afraid to do anything without harming another or committing "evil".


If we all wore bomb collars, maybe we would be more toughtful about our choices. ^_^
Another jaded man.
Wciąż stoję nieruchomo, w nieżywym już szeregu. Umieram na stojąco, niech inni giną w biegu.

pwhodges
A Lilin in Wonderland
A Lilin in Wonderland
User avatar
Age: 72
Posts: 10208
Joined: Nov 18, 2012
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby pwhodges » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:03 am

Though the mechanism is different, that is pretty much equivalent to Orwell's 1984 in that all consequences are monitored. Welcome to the thoughtful society?
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: Celebrating Radio Eva at 10 (details); Past avatars.
Can't wait for 3.0+1.0? - try Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

NemZ
Token Misanthrope
Token Misanthrope
User avatar
Posts: 15804
Joined: Jun 28, 2008
Location: St. Louis
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby NemZ » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:18 am

I continue to wonder just what 'evil' means in context of this thread, and with OP's edit (which is kind of pointless honestly, because people generally only look at the latest replies anyway) now I have to add 'sin' as a word I don't fully understand the use of here. Is Shinji offending a god of some sort?
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
"The internet: It's like a training camp for never amounting to anything." - Oglaf
"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno

Stillborn
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 2466
Joined: Apr 28, 2013
Location: Huge wastebin
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Stillborn » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:34 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Though the mechanism is different, that is pretty much equivalent to Orwell's 1984 in that all consequences are monitored. Welcome to the thoughtful society?


Hey, WILLE used that on Shinji and they are professionals and good guys so it can't be wrong :lol:
Another jaded man.
Wciąż stoję nieruchomo, w nieżywym już szeregu. Umieram na stojąco, niech inni giną w biegu.

pwhodges
A Lilin in Wonderland
A Lilin in Wonderland
User avatar
Age: 72
Posts: 10208
Joined: Nov 18, 2012
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: Is Shinji evil?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby pwhodges » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:40 am

View Original PostunitM wrote:I understand 100% that Shinji's intentions are not evil.

Thus, Shinji is not evil.

my aim is to discuss Shinji being evil of deeds.

In an evil world even good deeds can have evil consequences attached.

yet a side of me finds it hard to believe that Hitler did not have at least a partial reasoning(regardless of how absurd it was) behind his madness.

Naturally - that's why he did what he did.

Does that mean that, because terrible people hold a justification for doing terrible things, we should forgive them?

I believe that Hitler had the information to know the consequences of what he was doing, and chose his course with that knowledge. Shinji did not - the cases are not parallel.

Shinji may not have consciously sinned. Shinji may not have consciously committed evil acts. But regardless, he was in part responsible for them. I am not saying that Shinji gracefully accepted the title of evil, or that he accepted it in any way at all. But even if he refuses to accept it, his evil deeds forced the title of evil onto him.

This is simply the argument of some religions that we are all sinners, designed to keep us in a state of guilt through which we can be controlled.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: Celebrating Radio Eva at 10 (details); Past avatars.
Can't wait for 3.0+1.0? - try Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

unz
Israfel
Israfel
Posts: 458
Joined: Aug 31, 2015
Location: Italy
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby unz » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:48 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:I continue to wonder just what 'evil' means in context of this thread, and with OP's edit (which is kind of pointless honestly, because people generally only look at the latest replies anyway) now I have to add 'sin' as a word I don't fully understand the use of here. Is Shinji offending a god of some sort?


That would be easy to reply to but the whole evil thing is just beside the point when the most moving/cheesy scene can be all shades of grey isn't it. It's not like Shinji will put Asuka in a world of hurt in Final because of absolutes or treaths to his divine role as much as making a mistake and learning from it all at the last second. 'Cause apocalyptic Japanese things tend to deny the end of days and the non Japanese myth behind it by extention.

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
Posts: 23349
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Lost in Bat Country
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:37 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:now I have to add 'sin' as a word I don't fully understand the use of here. Is Shinji offending a god of some sort?

Well, Kaworu did use "sin" unironically, and he's basically a god, so... maybe?

BlueBasilisk
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 31
Posts: 1492
Joined: Nov 14, 2010
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BlueBasilisk » Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:33 pm

Unit 01's ignoring him now too, and it's basically a god as well.
:eva01heroic:
Someday I hope that we'll be reunited if that is what's destined to be. Perhaps we'll discover that elusive bible. And then we will finally be free!

NemZ
Token Misanthrope
Token Misanthrope
User avatar
Posts: 15804
Joined: Jun 28, 2008
Location: St. Louis
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby NemZ » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:31 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Well, Kaworu did use "sin" unironically, and he's basically a god, so... maybe?


If Kaworu is a god then Shinji probably is too. Can gods sin?

But mostly I think Kaworu is just full of shit in this version so who cares what he thinks.
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
"The internet: It's like a training camp for never amounting to anything." - Oglaf
"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno

unz
Israfel
Israfel
Posts: 458
Joined: Aug 31, 2015
Location: Italy
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby unz » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:48 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:Unit 01's ignoring him now too, and it's basically a god as well.
:eva01heroic:


Is there a reason for that? Yui probably rejected the dummy system after one first use, this last synch results might not mean shit since Shinji01 awakened for Asuka.

I took kaworu for an angeru and not one of those squidface ancestors freaks.

pwhodges
A Lilin in Wonderland
A Lilin in Wonderland
User avatar
Age: 72
Posts: 10208
Joined: Nov 18, 2012
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby pwhodges » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:32 pm

Yui just threw Shinji out (as in the series) to prevent him losing the rest of his life to being permanently absorbed (Mom's still trying to do her best for him, you see). Unit-01 rejecting sync with Shinji in Ritsuko's test is simply an expression of that to ensure that he doesn't repeat the process by trying to help again. But Ritsuko interprets it incorrectly as Shinji's inability to sync with any Evangelion, as we later see.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: Celebrating Radio Eva at 10 (details); Past avatars.
Can't wait for 3.0+1.0? - try Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
Posts: 23349
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Lost in Bat Country
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:43 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:But mostly I think Kaworu is just full of shit in this version so who cares what he thinks.

Shinji.

Sailor Star Dust
Kept you waiting, huh?
Kept you waiting, huh?
User avatar
Age: 33
Posts: 22818
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Location: Living in Houston, TX
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sailor Star Dust » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:56 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Unit-01 rejecting sync with Shinji in Ritsuko's test is simply an expression of that to ensure that he doesn't repeat the process by trying to help again. But Ritsuko interprets it incorrectly as Shinji's inability to sync with any Evangelion, as we later see.


I figured Rei 2 was protecting him from having to pilot again (like her words in 2.0) but I'm sure Yui felt the same way, whether or not it was to prevent Third Impact continuing. Sadly that did no good with his stubbornness in leaving Wille...
~Take care of yourself, I need you~

xanderkh
Donor
Donor
User avatar
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sep 12, 2011
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby xanderkh » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:58 pm

^

Or giving him a straight answer about what the **** was going on.

Like so many things wrong in Evangelion in life, miscommunication is the biggest problem of them all. :facepalm:
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera


Return to “Rebuild of Evangelion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests