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Blue Monday
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Postby Blue Monday » Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:20 pm

Jupiter's Legacy #1-4: Being topical as per the recent Mark Millar comments, I went into Jupiter's Legacy knowing next to nothing about the premise and completely unaware of what kind of story to expect. Undoubtedly, this is clearly in the higher tier of your standard Millar fare. It's too early yet to pass proper judgement, the series only seemingly right on the cusp of the juicy stuff in #3-4, but I won't be surprised if this will be up among the author's other such works as Superior, The Ultimates and Red Son. Thematically, Jupiter's Legacy is dripping with ideas - a treatise on capes and their inherent connection to the American ideal by way of Twilight of the Superheroes - tackling topics ranging from the potential fall of capitalism, worldwide economic downturn, generational disparity and legacy (well, duh). The blurb on the back of each issue simply reads; "Chloe and Brandon are the children of the world's greatest heroes. Can they ever fill their shoes?"

Now I don't consider myself a fan of Frank Quitely (in fact, I've never really liked his pencils much at all) however this almost reserved approach on display in JL is rather eye-tingling. Tantalising, rather. There are no splash pages of spreads trying to dazzler the reader, only sparse, almost minimalist panelling. Quitely's playing a lot with vacant space and distance with his compositions, giving the effect of larger scope. The only downside art-wise I'd say is that we're yet to see a true flexing of the muscles, so to speak. There's some nice action in the first and third issues but that's about it. The best is obviously yet to come.
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Postby Chuckman » Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:22 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Well fuck, that tells me there's something I need to read.


You have to bring a lot to it. Editorial cut the number of issues Morrison was allotted to tell his story and forced tie-ins on him, so the latter half of the story is very compressed, almost like an outline at points. Then again, a lot of Kirby's Fourth World stuff is like that, too.
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Postby Blue Monday » Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:55 pm

One more issue in Final Crisis would've made all the difference...

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Postby movieartman » Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:24 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:1.) They need to change to suit the times

Instead of turning the comics into Superfriends cartoons they need to come up with something new that speaks to the world around them.

Comics used to be relevant. They spoke to the fears of the generations that read them, either directly or through symbol. Like all mythologies they were, at their core, morality tales.

2.) and they're not challenging.

3.) They fundamentally misunderstand the material they're working with

1.) there is not a current time to change too, patriotic ww2, the fun 60s, dark mistrustful Vietnam and the 70s, post 911 made the times, and they made themselves relevant in those eras, there is no CURRENT era for them to conform too, there is no way comics on the whole could be made to be relevant to the masses in general on a challenging intellectual level at the current time, there is far FAR too many opinions, mindsets and differences in opinion in the world right now for that.
2.) yes sometimes they are, there is no law that says they NEED to be aways, comics are and aways will be Entertainment first, thats like saying a movie should not be made just to be fun, it MUST have a message or its garbage.
3.) they understand the material absolutely fine, some creators might have deeper intentions when they work thru the medium, it is not a misunderstanding or a fault with the creators to just make entertainment to entertain.

View Original PostChuckman wrote:1.) Darkseid's return is emblematic of what's wrong with cape books.
2.) They're pandering garbage
3.) and porn porn (Let's take a cute naive character who can learn languages by touching people and rewire her to just fuck everybody instead)

1.) multiple versions of characters meant to contrast from the previous version but also do new things with said character without messing up the previous versions ending?, he did not return, its entire new version of the character with his own history and future.
kirby does not own darksied, his version of the character is not THE character.
2.) that is the only way people will buy them is if they find something of value in it intended for them and there interest, you can not make entertainment if no one finds anything entertaining in it.
people pay to be entertained and by default be pandered to, basically you insulting every single person who ever payed for a comic, movie, anime, novel, cd or anything just for the entertainment of it.
3.) if by everyone you mean dick in flashbacks and roy who she is still in a relationship with and.... thats it then yes she slept with EVERYONE (she did not sleep with jason he was just fake bragging to roy)

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Postby Chuckman » Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:38 pm

Darkseid and the Fourth World are Jack Kirby's creations. The man was a genius that built a dozen hugely successful comics franchises and gets virtually no credit for it and is essentially unknown outside of comic book fandom. Putting the character's name and face on a totally new version is just continuing to dishonor his memory.

There is plenty in the contemporary world for comics to address, that's a ridiculous assertion.

View Original Postmovieartman wrote:1.) there is not a current time to change too, patriotic ww2, the fun 60s, dark mistrustful Vietnam and the 70s, post 911 made the times, and they made themselves relevant in those eras, there is no CURRENT era for them to conform too, there is no way comics on the whole could be made to be relevant to the masses in general on a challenging intellectual level at the current time, there is far FAR too many opinions, mindsets and differences in opinion in the world right now for that.


What?
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Postby movieartman » Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:05 am

View Original PostChuckman wrote:.
What?

Previous eras they where relevant dew to a mostly singular sweeping overarching event/mood that effected virtually EVERYONE in society in the same way, there is no single theme for all comics to follow in current society like they did in those eras I mentioned.
There for individual comics must cater to many different consumers there for they must pander to each individual audience.

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Postby StarShaper7 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 3:47 am

I tried to resist responding, seeing as how this isn't much of a discussion, but.

Do you really feel confident enough in your historical and sociological knowledge of the past 70+ years of America to be making such claims? I'm no historian (or sociologist) but it seems to me that a lot has happened in that timespan... most of it resulting from different mindsets and moods found within the population. Different people react differently to events taking place, they have different thoughts and opinions and it's been this way for a loooong time. Go figure. Believe it or not, we didn't start the fire.

Why do you think that entertainment and intellectual stimulus are mutually exclusive? Because thinking isn't fun? You seem to think "pander" doesn't come with a negative connotation. You seem to think people paying for something that entertains them and wanting more of it automatically makes it pandering. Look up the definition of the word and you'll see that it means indulgence of an immoral or distasteful desire or behavior. Does this align with your definition of "being entertained?" There's something wrong when a consumer and/or a supplier thinks being entertained automatically equates to being indulged.

And intent doesn't matter. First and foremost, a work is the result of a thought process. The creators are sharing their work with an audience, the work is designed by their thoughts and created through their efforts. These thoughts were shaped by objective reality and the social reality created by human civilization. This means it says something about society, about life, the human condition, regardless of whether or not the creator(s) had expressly set the objective of conveying a particular message. Meaning can even be found in what claims to be meaningless. Paying for a comic isn't a simple exchange of product for paper, it also means you're exposing yourself to the thoughts of a creator and supporting them by paying for what they've made. I'm not saying that you necessarily internalize the thoughts conveyed in a work, but you are at least thinking about it, since you're consuming it.

I know that what I'm trying to say can be articulated much more efficiently by other members on this forum. Hell, maybe I have some misconceptions myself. But hopefully most of what I'm saying stands to scrutiny and makes sense to you.

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Postby movieartman » Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:17 am

View Original PostStarShaper7 wrote:1.) Why do you think that entertainment and intellectual stimulus are mutually exclusive? Because thinking isn't fun?
2.) Look up the definition of the word and you'll see that it means indulgence of an immoral or distasteful desire or behavior.

1.) I do not think that at all, I'm mearly stating that comics on the whole do not automatically become garbage if the majority of them are not highly intulectually stimulating. Watchmen is among the most brilliant pieces of Literature In history, watchmen is my 2nd favorite comic storyline so far, all I'm saying is not every comic that comes out needs to try and be equal. To watchmen to be entertaining.
2.) Hence why I would not have used pandering, I would use the term catering to the audiences wishes. There is nothing immoral about supply and demand.

I get the feeling I'm just stirring up trouble so I'm gonna try and bow out of this and similar discussions for a bit.

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Postby StarShaper7 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:57 am

When did anybody here say that every comic needs to be like Watchmen? When did anybody say that a comic automatically becomes garbage when it's not "highly intellectually stimulating?" Again, you seem to be misunderstanding people's words. I see what Chuckman wrote (of course, he knows what he's saying better than I do) as a critique of the current state of superhero comics in general, how they have become increasingly insular and misused, losing their original purpose and heart to the point of pandering to a marginal group of society. This has resulted in loss of relevance to society at large. Compare the popularity of (superhero) comics in, say, the 60's to today. Superheroes were agents of morality. Today they're whatever they want them to be.

The challenging cape comics today comment on and critique the state of the superhero, ironically adding to this insularity, but in hopes of inspiring change. This is the whole point of Morrison's Multiversity after the dismissal of Final Crisis.

And the immorality is in what's being demanded and supplied and why. I wasn't saying supply and demand is immoral. But how superhero comics are written today, in general, is pandering and indicative of something wrong with the creators and the readers.

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Postby Blue Monday » Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:47 am

Quick reminder for those that may be interested; the Miracleman annual is out on Wednesday with an all-new story from Grant Morrison (technically an old one, just never published) and interior art from Marvel CCO Joe Quesada. Pretty sure this is the first time in over a decade Quesada's actually illustrated a full comic issue too. Say what you will about him, he looks like he's knocked it out of the park in this instance (the man should've stuck strictly to art, huh). Some more info in this article dated from a few months ago: http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/09/04/here-comes-grant-morrisons-miracleman/

Hopefully this is an indicator of more possible work at Marvel from Morrison, as unlikely as it is...

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Postby StarShaper7 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 7:29 am

All we can do is hope...

But maybe part of the reason why Marvel is publishing this story is because this is a sort of invitation from Marvel to come and write for them again, once he feels his work is done at DC... Maybe he'll write another X-Men arc so that the nagging sense that New X-Men was incomplete will go away. Here Comes Tomorrow really was abrupt, both the beginning of the arc and as an ending to Morrison's run. Though I am interested in what he'd do with other Marvel characters.

I'll take a break from JLA (which is a break from the Daredevil omnibus) before going into Volume 3. This really is an epic superhero team book, Rock of Ages felt like Final Crisis Lite. The art is often in the "meh" to decent range though.

I read the eight issues of DV8 that Warren Ellis wrote. These are so fucking 90's. You have teenagers behaving badly, doing drugs, drinking several bottles of alcohol at a time, murdering people without remorse and generally not giving a shit about anything, which is how they were raised to be. Aside from giving us an exaggeration of rowdy teens who are trying to figure themselves out, most of it's meant to be black humor, but it's not really funny. They begin to develop a sense of morality and eventually grow to care for one another and others--to a certain extent that's still kind of unacceptable. So, essentially you have hedonistic sociopaths learning to be humans. Meh. None of the characters were particularly interesting and Humberto Ramos' art was terrible. His cartoon/anime-y style doesn't work with the script, and by itself his technique is poor. He's improved since then (~1996) as his pencils for Slott's Spider-Man were okay, much better than his work here on DV8. I didn't care for Ellis' DV8, but I know he's capable of doing much better, as evidenced by his recent stint on Moon Knight. It felt like he was intentionally phoning it in here. I'm expecting Planetary, Authority and Transmetropolitan to be much better.

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Postby Blue Monday » Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:02 am

Funny you mention that about New X-Men, as you well know I'm not particularly fond of it, but I actually quite like Here Comes Tomorrow. I felt it left things in just the right place by playing with a few of the threads established in Morrison's run (Sublime as highly evolved sentient bacteria, Beak's descendant, Cassandra Nova as the leader of the X-Men, et cetera). Especially with the last scene/page with Scott and Emma - I've been a big supporter of their relationship ever since. In my personal continuity, it also provides the perfect segue to the start of Joss Whedon's Astonishing X-Men.


View Original PostStarShaper7 wrote:Though I am interested in what he'd do with other Marvel characters.

Fantastic Four, maybe? Or possibly even Doctor Strange.

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Postby Merridian » Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:44 am

View Original PostStarShaper7 wrote:I didn't care for Ellis' DV8, but I know he's capable of doing much better, as evidenced by his recent stint on Moon Knight. It felt like he was intentionally phoning it in here. I'm expecting Planetary, Authority and Transmetropolitan to be much better.
Ellis is pretty hit or miss. Some of his stuff is really fun, even great (Planetary, Transmet), some of it's ludicrous with interesting ideas (Dr. Sleepless), and some of it is downright boring. I guess that's the consequence of being as prolific as he is.

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Postby Rosenakahara » Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:51 am

So its weird, dark horse lately has gone from being one of my most hated comic book publishers to one of my most liked.
Between the avatar comics, the adventure time comics, and some really good independent comics im starting to really like them.

Dont get me wrong they still produce their fair share of shit too but honestly at least with these comics i don't have to worry about retcons every 5 years.
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:03 pm

View Original PostBlue Monday wrote:Funny you mention that about New X-Men, as you well know I'm not particularly fond of it, but I actually quite like Here Comes Tomorrow. I felt it left things in just the right place by playing with a few of the threads established in Morrison's run (Sublime as highly evolved sentient bacteria, Beak's descendant, Cassandra Nova as the leader of the X-Men, et cetera). Especially with the last scene/page with Scott and Emma - I've been a big supporter of their relationship ever since. In my personal continuity, it also provides the perfect segue to the start of Joss Whedon's Astonishing X-Men.


I do think that the parts you mention were OK, although the arc itself possibly suffers due to introducing an almost-entirely new setting and new characters without really developing much of it (seriously, what was with the talking whale) and they're all killed off at the end of the arc anyway; while they manage to loop it back into the present the whole future Morrison rigged together feels incomplete and rough around the edges; while it fulfills its role as an epilogue to Morrison's run as a whole as a story arc it definitely isn't safe from that feeling of incompleteness, that there's something missing.

Speaking of Cassandra Nova, I was a bit upset that Morrison's 'Ernst is Cassandra' subplot never went anywhere, and the only time they brought Cassandra back was as a weird future version of herself in Uncanny X-Force (not Remender's X-Force, the one by Humphries with Spiral in it).
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Postby movieartman » Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:24 pm

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:and the only time they brought Cassandra back was as a weird future version of herself in Uncanny X-Force (not Remender's X-Force, the one by Humphries with Spiral in it).

did you read that series in full? your thoughts? i didn't get to read it, did read a portion of cable & the x-men at the time, thought it was reasonably good.
spiral's outfit redesign was badass.

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:41 pm

^I thought that the series had some good ideas, particularly the whole idea of getting Spiral into the mix; while she's normally an extremely powerful villain, here we see her mostly de-powered and fighting for someone else's benefit for a change. It was also a relief to see a sympathetic Bishop again after spending a long time hating him through the whole Messiah arc, Second Coming and AvX.

Unfortunately, the series really was brought down by the fact that it's so short- especially compared to Remender's run. I mean, the team only ever fights Evil Future Cassandra and that's about it before they decided to merge Uncanny X-Force and Cable & X-Force into one title, which meant that we never got to see the team really consolidate themselves (hell, even Cable's team got a secret base and a few story arcs in before the big merger), and there was less Spiral and Bishop than I would have liked.

I did think it was a rather odd team mixup. No idea why Puck was in there.
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Postby StarShaper7 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:57 pm

View Original PostBlue Monday wrote:Funny you mention that about New X-Men, as you well know I'm not particularly fond of it, but I actually quite like Here Comes Tomorrow. I felt it left things in just the right place by playing with a few of the threads established in Morrison's run (Sublime as highly evolved sentient bacteria, Beak's descendant, Cassandra Nova as the leader of the X-Men, et cetera). Especially with the last scene/page with Scott and Emma - I've been a big supporter of their relationship ever since. In my personal continuity, it also provides the perfect segue to the start of Joss Whedon's Astonishing X-Men.

Fantastic Four, maybe? Or possibly even Doctor Strange.


I also liked it, but I felt that there should have been an arc set in the present right after HCT to act as the epilogue/denouement, especially since the future world in HCT became invalidated. Show us where he's left the characters aside from Emma and Scott. I guess even just a "Goodbye" issue would have been nice. And I'm no fan of Marc Silvestri, though his art isn't bad. Just doesn't have much appeal to me.

I think Morrison actually did a FF mini-series. I'll have to read that sometime. And he'd definitely have some fun with Dr. Strange. I'm interested in an Avengers ongoing, given how much I liked New X-Men and my blooming appreciation for JLA. Or maybe he could take individual characters and do what he did for Superman and Batman.

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Postby Blue Monday » Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:50 am

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:Seriously, what was with the talking whale?

You should read some of the other stuff Morrison has done, i.e. Animal Man, The Invisibles, et cetera.

:tongue:


View Original PostStarShaper7 wrote:I think Morrison actually did a FF mini-series. I'll have to read that sometime. And he'd definitely have some fun with Dr. Strange. I'm interested in an Avengers ongoing, given how much I liked New X-Men and my blooming appreciation for JLA. Or maybe he could take individual characters and do what he did for Superman and Batman.

From what I've read a majority of Marvel internal absolutely hated New X-Men at the time, which is why most of it has been unfortunately retconned out of existence (Fuck that noise, Xorn will forever be Magneto to me and yes; he did kill thousands of Manhattanites), so I can't see them handing over the reigns of the Avengers, their primary intellectual property due solely to the movies.

I actually didn't know he'd penned an FF story already. Still, as much as I'm enjoying the current James Robinson run, I'd be keen to see him take them on in an ongoing - ideally with Quitely art because it would be perfectly suited to the comic (or maybe I'm just still on a high from Jupiter's Legacy).

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Postby StarShaper7 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:28 am

Just read it.

Fantastic Four 1234 was alright. I did like how it pretty much boiled down to Reed and Doom playing a game of chess with reality manipulation machines (called Prime Movers, taken directly from the cosmological arguments for the existence of God). Here Morrison has Doom taking advantage of the weaknesses of the Four, altering reality (to a limited extent) to work in favor for him. The sullen and melancholy mood Jae Lee and Jose Villarrubia perfectly illustrate reflects this intensification of the flaws and negative emotions of the characters. It was a decent read. It was intentionally more gloomy and "mature" for the Marvel Knights imprint, so I think if Morrison ever took on the mainstream ongoing FF book it would have a somewhat different tone from 1234.

Namor always seems to play the role of Mr. Steal Yo Girl. I think most recently it was with Emma Frost.
SPOILER: Show
Image

I like to think that Sue and Reed are in an open relationship like Sartre and de Beauvoir were. I feel like I've seen Sue flirting with and kissing other men with Reed not minding very much, though I'm not too sure. Are they secretly swingers? :lol:
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