Well, hello, ladies and gentleman. This is my third post ever in these forums and yet it is… somewhat extensive. However, this is something that has been irking me for quite a while now, and I believe it may be a subject of considerable importance to Eva fandom. So, please, bear with me.

After reading LVDB's Compromises and particularly Lavanya Six's Better Luck Next Time, I kept wondering if the Peggy Sue scenario, one of the most common types of Eva fanfiction - and, indeed, fanfiction in general, was possible at all.

Here we have one shy, passive and unassuming teenager, against his obsessed dad and a at least decades-old conspiracy by a powerful secret society to, 8ahem, reform humanity rather forcefully. Even if he has knowledge of the future, can he really succeed in changing it? Don’t even get start on why I think it is thematically… wrong.

There are a myriad of things post-Instrumentality and about its nature which are open to interpretation, after all. I’m sure you have all discussed this many times before, but…

Firstly, how much does Shinji actually know? Things like the angel battles, Rei's origins and etc are a given. Shinji, after all, never ceased to be a pawn until the end. We usually assume that the whole mind-meld group therapy gives him deep insight into, for instance, Misato and Asuka. Yet, does he necessarily remember the memories of... uhmm, everyone? It would seem pretty hard for his consciousness to remain stable if he could no longer differentiate himself from anyone else. Hence, how much the whole "all is one" thing really goes - everyone is connected, we know that, yet that does not entail that even during instrumentality there wasn't even an hint of an "I". After all, Shinji sees Misato's memories yet he still separates himself from her and Kaji, Misato, Ritsuko, etc, just like he has a confrontation with Asuka in a physical form that's not really physical. It's more like having an library and being able to read all of its books, instead of having them sealed somehow, or if they were all just one book (I suck at analogies, I know)

Personally, I like to think that the collective intellect of humankind thought it best if people just got to know the people that were already a part of their lives. Hence, post-3I Shinji could think of Asuka and remember all the bad stuff with her mother. He would think of Hikari, someone not as close to him, and, say, remember what she thinks about her sisters, something not as personal. He would think of her sisters and remember how much they like her cooking, something probably even less personal. Does that mean he could tell that Section 2 agent by the corner is called Larry and has a hamster who likes to eat Pringles? I doubt so.

While all that is fine and dandy for dealing with people better - not that that can't have a positive effect on the final outcome - knowledge from the minds of SEELE's members, as well as Gendo would undoubtedly be useful, yet if we go by my assumption above he would likely only have Gendo's. He didn't even know Chairmen Keel existed before 3I.

To makes this post just a little more conceited: Anno and subsequently Eva have been gratefully influenced by existentialist philosophy, one of its foremost authors being the Danish philosopher Kierkegaard, who is referenced multiple times in Eva. Instrumentality is pretty much one big exposure of existentialist views. One of its most important philosophical descendants was Camus' absurdism. Absurdism, being bluntly short, postulates that the man should not attempt to find an inherent meaning of life and the universe, not because of a futility to itself, but rather because the human mind is incapable to comprehend it. I could talk a lot about it but I don’t want to derail this post any longer.

How successfully can Shinji disguise such knowledge? Obviously SEELE wouldn't like to have a time traveler running amok to thwart their plans. However, much like Gendo tolerates Kaji until he is no longer useful, could Seele and Gendo do the same with Shinji? Would Gendo go as far as to… dispose of his own son? Obviously there is a great deal of character interpretation involved. Would they let him be until he… outlived his usefulness, or will they deem him too much of a risk and “erase” him soone¿ I must confess I never really understood what was the exact purpose of Shinji in Third Impact itself before Rei III handed it over to him.

All that seems to hinger on my next question…

How capable is Gendo, really?
We all know Gendo is a ruthless bastard who comfortably uses people as tools in order to attain his goal – which happens to be reuniting with his lost love. As such, Gendo, despite all his raw badassery, is NOT the perfect planning machine. In fact, his unwillingness to let go is indicative of some strong flaws in his character, not to mention all the underlying similarities with Shinji. The apple never falls far from the tree, does it¿ He is just as human as everyone else, and humans are flawed. Case in point – Rei II’s activation test incident. It would probably be better to just get rid of an injured Rei II which represented a liability, instead of keeping her around, or how much desperate he was in rescuing her (or, as EvAbridged put it “normally we would just send a laser cutter team to retrieve the entry plug, but the commander said… EJECT THE ENTRY PLUG). I think you see where I’m getting at: he has grown attached to Rei and completely trusts her to do his will, no wonder he is so surprised when she turns her back on him in EoE. I think that invalidates what happened in Better Luck Next Time with Gendo...

BLNT also emphasizes that Gendo is able to use Section 2 to keep track of all movements of NERV’s personnel, and that there should be no such thing as privacy in all of Tokyo-3. This is a major gray area. We never really know whether how much of a security and surveillance detail each pilot has. We usually assume they have a discreet bodyguard detail escorting them. Wouldn’t want some pesky Yakuza to try and kidnap the pilots for money, now would we? Furthermore, is there ANY reason he would NOT have Katsuragi’s and Rei’s apartments and many other places bugged to listen to everything? All the “you can be yourself Rei” and “Eva is not everything Asuka” conversations, and many other juicy details. It could depend on not being paranoid on the original timeline (would he?), but this time he could get more distrustful, due to Shinji's behavior.

Another problem, also mentioned, is Shinji’s abrupt big change in behavior. How could a meek little boy suddently turn into a confidant, battle hardened, smooth-talking, high-sychronization Casanova warrior, as most fics make him into¿ If Shinji played it carefully he could just keep acting like his old self and implement slight, progressive changes in his personality to make it seem believable, but telling Daddy to stick this giant robot where the sun don’t shine right out of the blue is like putting a big “DANGER” sign hanging over his forehead.

Furthermore, when exactly does Shinji comes back to?? Most commonly at the start of the series itself, otherwise after waking up in the aftermath with the battle with Leliel. Funnily enough, it might even be for the best, given Shinji has less of a chance to expose himself.

In fact, what is really necessary to stop Third Impact? Is it enough to merely actually destroy one of the Eva units? Are they all necessary for the post process of Third Impact itself? Given their astronomical costs, it could not be feasible for Seele to replace them again at least for the time being. They were not planning on still having to worry about money, after all.
Arresting the Selle members somehow¿ - I always thought it was rather interesting how their power seems to be great yet not infinite. They appear to have simply convinced the Japanese government that NERV is some sort of terrorist organization instead of actually controlling it? What if they are just publicly exposed?

Convincing Rei not to go along with… anything in the first place, and leaving Gendo waiting for her fruitlessly in Terminal Dogma? Or otherwise just tying her up to a chair in a dark room somewhere he can’t find her?

Just killing Gendo?!?

I’m open to your opinions, O dear sages of Eva wisdom.

Publicly exposing SEELE most likely wouldn't work, considering that they were able to cover up Second Impact via information control. Besides, why would anyone believe someone saying that a doomsday cult is trying to end the world? He'd be dismissed as a conspiracy theorist nutjob due to the sheer implausibility of that statement.

Convincing Rei not to go along with Gendo's will would only work as far as preventing Gendo from starting Third Impact. It wouldn't, however, prevent SEELE from starting it instead. Destroying the MP Evas wouldn't work either, as SEELE would just make more and try it again later.

The only real options here are killing every member of SEELE (impossible because realistically, killing the first few would result in the rest realizing someone is after them and going into hiding), or pulling a bastardized Instrumentality by tanging all angelic tissue on Earth, making Eva production impossible due to no one having access to the necessary genetic material anymore (how would anyone in the cast know that's even an option?). SEELE's holding not just all the cards but the whole deck, complete with packaging.

So that's a no. Bummer.

I do insist that "Given their astronomical costs, it could not be feasible for Seele to replace them again at least for the time being. They were not planning on still having to worry about money, after all." In episode 3 I believe, they already mention how the maintenence costs of an Eva alone would be enough to bankrupt a small country. The Eva, even only in its "public" purpose, is a weapon of desperation. They can't just keep making a unending stream of them. If I'm not mistaken, that's roughly what happens in the ANIMA light novels: Seele retreats into the shadows again and NERV actively opposes them in a "cold war" of sorts.

I have seen a couple fics that dealt with the problem of "can't leave SEELE alive" by using LOTS of planning and simultaneous strikes to take them all down before they can hide. There's also the internet as a way of quickly spreading the truth, and I've seen that get used as a threat too.

In Once More With Feeling, Kaji makes an excellent point towards Shinji: he is just a pilot. A very well-informed pilot, yes, but he simply doesn't have the ability to bring down SEELE, and he shouldn't attempt it. One thing I like about OMWF is that it actually dips into what's going on away from the main characters, and shows that there are people investigating NERV and SEELE. Of course, the story isn't finished, but I imagine if SEELE is going to be brought down or exposed, it will be by those people (I think they're the Japanese Defense Agency or something).

The only fic I've seen that has surveillance EVERYWHERE is Nobody Dies, which is a light-hearted fic and NERV only uses it to a) keep an eye out for hanky panky, and b) watch epic fight scenes. I've often seen it mentioned that for all of Section 2's "skill", they took something like four days to find Shinji when he ran away, and took their sweet time locating Asuka when she disappeared. Section 2 is not as all-seeing and all-knowing as they're made out to be.

One thing I notice about Peggy Sue fics is they tend to focus on Shinji being the individual to go back and change things, which...frankly, what would it matter? It's not a knock against Shinji, but as you pointed out in your initial post, Felipe, he is in no position to really change things. That is, of course, barring some sort of Groundhog Day scenario (or All You Need Is Kill...this is anime we're talking about, after all). I don't know if there has been an Eva fic like that, but it would certainly be interesting to see the character of Shinji evolve as he progressively 'levels up' with each jaunt back to the past.

The thing I am curious about are Peggy Sue situations in which a different character (say one in a more key position, such as Misato...or even Gendo) had the opportunity to go back and screw with the timeline. It is true that SEELE is an organization with a lot of planning, resources, and paranoia, and I am often the first to point out that individuals versus organizations tend to fail: I also (as you can gather) do not believe in the infallibility of groups, as even the most well-trained, secretive, and paranoid of groups can make staggering mistakes (there are many real-world organizations one could compare SEELE to, and the one thing you consistently see is the 'myth' of invincibility. All that's needed is one peek behind the curtain to see the sheer number of failures for every success). If anything, the way Third Impact played out proved that SEELE is not impossible to defeat. The scenario was already well on the way to being hijacked by Gendo, and even when it failed for Gendo...it failed for SEELE. They were playing with forces beyond their ability to control or understand.

So, can a Peggy Sue work? Sure. At the end of the day, the plot is simply an excuse to see characters grow. If it works, it works, and don't think to hard on the ins and outs.

I will say this, as to making a BELIEVABLE Peggy Sue (which I have not seen yet): a Philadelphia Experiment scenario. That is, a group of individuals (possibly the whole GeoFront and all of the Eva cast) are the ones thrown back. How would that scenario play out? All the secrets out in the open, everything up for grabs, the whole of the nasty story behind them...and they all start over. Say at the Iruel battle. What a messy situation THAT would be.

Gob, thanks for reminding me of Dazed and Confused. That's a story where EVERYONE is a Peggy Sue, but very few people (I think it's only Toji and Kensuke) know that someone else is also a time traveler.

OMWF handles it spetacularly well. It's nice how in the last chapter Shinji lets it slip just how much he actually cares for what he is doing and raises Keel's suspicions also by inexplicably recognizing him (I don't think some "I saw a picture of you with my dad once" excuse would work, though...). I didn't think I should have mention it in the first post though. I'm sure I'm not the only one awaiting an update...

There is a fic that does just that - Dazed and Confused, (thread two), except that all characters come from a (sometimes radically) different timeline. Hikari is a mad scientist of sorts and Asuka is commonly referred to as "Uberbitch!Asuka".

I have to agree though that Section does not seem to be invincible. Makoto comments something to the effect of "they just want to screw with us in Operations", yet it seems that the time they take to recover the pilots more than once (they did let a depressed Asuka roam free for a couple of days), even when their absence could mean victory for the Angels, is not entirely intentional. I just finished reading Rommel's Genocide (don't think I need to link that) and at one point a character comments on "Section 2's rent-a-cops", and I think that makes perfect sense. NERV would compose Section 2 of a bunch of different people with security/military backgrounds, not make them into a fully capable organization - it allows them to be easily replaced when their agents could learn of so many incriminating and compromising things.

From Taking Sights, in which Gendo goes back, though you probably read it by now: "But don't think that means I can't call you on your drinking, Ikari. People are starting to notice (need to keep the scary boss image)."

"Who? When?"

"Your Section detail for one"

"Damn it. I left Kim in place for too long. [...] Have our wiretaps on him sh-"

"Don't worry. He hasn't talked. Nor will he. I had him liquidated this morning."

"Good work".

That one was a Seele mole, though, but it does illustrate the situation.

There's also Unbroken and No, where Asuka is the Peggy Suer. I can't think of any other ones, though, at least not worth mentioning. Would like some recommendations myself, it is an interesting concept. Can Pen-Pen or Kensuke save the world?

EDIT: Goddamnit, they beat me to it.

You know, guys... I was wondering when would anyone write a Peggy Sue fic where Shinji goes back and... decides not to do anything. He's not actively being malicious, he's simply aware how fucked up the situation is and is not even trying.

Instead of stressing himself out over trying to do the impossible, he chooses to simply enjoy the time he has left by doing mundane, down-to-earth things like hanging out with his friends.

Gob, how 'bout an EVA Session with that plot?

Possibly: but I don't know if I could do it justice. And I have stuff on my plate and a back-log of MAMMOTH proportions.

Still, one with Shinji going back and just...not doing anything. It's interesting...but would he? I think that might be a good vignette to have in an All You Need Is Kill loop...where he decides to try and break the loop by just letting things be.

On itself, it would also be interesting...bittersweet, maybe.

Now that you mentioned it though I think Misato might be the best candidate overall for a Peggy Suer. She is one of the few smart enough (come on, Shinji is not dumb but he will not raise to Gendo levels of planning overnight. Though I don't think that's what he does in OMWF anyhow. He just tries to make things better in small ways for the people around him - which leads to bigger results cumulatively. It's good he handed over the actual world conspiracy to Kaji), capable and powerful enough to fix things. Her knowledge from Instrumentity can help her make sure both Shinji and Asuka stay stable and neither runs away nor gets depressed, shipping notwithstanding. She can work with Kaji just as well, in fact possibly better than Shinji, and direct the pilots in combat with her knowledge both against the Angels and the MP Evas. There's also her influence with Ritsuko, etc. She is one of the few people in a position to screw with Gendo even in NGE itself. Hell, why don't we have more Misato-centric fanfics?

amitakartok wrote:Gob, how 'bout an EVA Session with that plot?

I'll be waiting. Anxiously. Albeit that's roughly what Shinji does after a while in Dr. Strangelove. I use the term loosely.

Gob Hobblin wrote:Possibly: but I don't know if I could do it justice. And I have stuff on my plate and a back-log of MAMMOTH proportions.

Still, one with Shinji going back and just...not doing anything. It's interesting...but would he? I think that might be a good vignette to have in an All You Need Is Kill loop...where he decides to try and break the loop by just letting things be.

On itself, it would also be interesting...bittersweet, maybe.

I wasn't thinking of a serious plot; more of a slice-of-life story with possibly an underlying theme of accepting inevitability, of shaking hands with the Grim Reaper when he comes for you instead of hiding or running away.

Struggling against fate is for the kinds of Simon the Digger. Shinji Ikari is not that kind of guy, so why should he act like that?

Shinji can become that kind of guy. That's the point of this whole conflict and catharsis thing.