With the confirmation that Yui is functioning specifically as shogouki's "control system" in Q, we have at the very least the implication that a core without such a control system isn't viable for use in a piloted eva. While this doesn't limit the number of possible alternatives (dummy systems, clones, souls inherent to the evas,), it does imply that every piloted eva with a core is accompanied by some kind of secondary control system, likely based on a personality or a simulation of one.

Consequently, it seems logical to say that Eva 02, despite there being no references to containing Asuka's mother, at the very least contains a personality-based control interface of some kind. The fact that Mari had to swap out Eva 02's core also implies that certain control systems are more suited to certain pilots (or perhaps just contain pilot-specific permissions).

Eva 13's confirmation as an adams and lack of an AT field imply that is has no core, especially given the shot in the "Until You Come to Me" short of the adams which appear to be biologically suspended by the spears, but not through the impalement of the core as one would expect. Lacking a core, how is it that Kaworu and Shinji are even able to successfully pilot eva 13, if in other evas the control system+core is required for piloting? One possibility is that the dual entry system compensates by having the pilots act as mutual control systems for their shared eva.


If the mark 09 is pure core+control system and is meant to be integrated into the Wunder, it seems likely that the Wunder is manufactured more similarly to traditional eva units than to Unit 13. The angelic properties of the Wunder obviously imply that the thing is a product of reverse-engineering angelic technology, likely carried out alongside the development of the Mark 09, which was then stolen by Wille (or alternatively the Mark 09 was stolen by SEELE, depending on who attacked first).

The epithet "vessel of adams" seems likely to refer to the control system that is meant to operate the Mark 09: SEELE's program, which I'm guessing is a digital reconstruction of the souls of the adams themselves. Where NERV weaponized the adams by building a physical control system on the soulless original body, SEELE did it by digitizing the soul of the adams and inserting it into an artificial construct of pure core.

If these ideas have already been discussed and discarded I apologize, feel free to tell me off and delete the thread.

Infinite Freedom Machine wrote:Eva 13's confirmation as an adams and lack of an AT field imply that is has no core

The lack of ATF only means no soul, not no core. Kaworu does impale Eva 13 right in the place a core should be, suggesting there's one there. Also, Eva-06, which is almost certainly a reappropriated Adams, definitely has a core.

it seems likely that the Wunder is manufactured more similarly to traditional eva units than to Unit 13. The angelic properties of the Wunder obviously imply that the thing is a product of reverse-engineering angelic technology

I was under the impression that Wunder and Mark.09 had constituted some sort of entity that was found by humans and harnessed for their ends. Not that this is necessarily the case...

The epithet "vessel of adams" seems likely to refer to the control system that is meant to operate the Mark 09: SEELE's program, which I'm guessing is a digital reconstruction of the souls of the adams themselves.

A vessel by definition is something that contains something else. The Seele program is what is being contained, so it logically cannot be the VoA. Perhaps you meant to say that the mobile core-being is the VoA, as your idea holds that it contains an artificial Adams soul? Definite props for coming up with something I haven't heard before.

I have reservations, though, in as much as it's called Vessel of (the) Adams, full stop. The "false" terminology is used nowhere, despite being appropriate here (artificial Adams soul is not the true Adams) and being used extensively elsewhere in ENT. There is also the weird detail Mari mentioned, wherein Rei would either be absorbed by Mark.09 or become a VoA herself (the language is vague) if she didn't leave the Eva, which probably has relevance toward just what Mark.09 is and needs to be accounted for.

Where NERV weaponized the adams by building a physical control system on the soulless original body, SEELE did it by digitizing the soul of the adams and inserting it into an artificial construct of pure core.

I'm not sure how the analogy makes sense with the core-body in the picture.

Infinite Freedom Machine wrote:The angelic properties of the Wunder obviously imply that the thing is a product of reverse-engineering angelic technology,

I was thinking only today that perhaps the Wunder was actually the otherwise unaccounted for 11th angel, captured and controlled. We saw at the start of Ha that they had captured an angel, which is escaping, and there are suggestions that an entry plug is visible on it before Mari destroys it - so I was wondering if perhaps they'd got the technology right the next time.

pwhodges wrote:I was thinking only today that perhaps the Wunder was actually the otherwise unaccounted for 11th angel, captured and controlled.

The idea is not an uncommon one, but the 12th Angel and 4I monkey wrench this a bit. (Maybe.) With the 12th sealed inside Mark.06, the covenant could be fulfilled at Seele's leisure; just remove the Spears to break the seal whenever. Kaworu can be "cast down" (whatever that means or implies), essence of Angel can be slurped into 13, blah blah. With killing Angels one by one being so important to the covenant, I have a hard time believing that this plan would have been set up with one really huge Angel still at large.

I suppose in accordance with the 11th Angel idea it's possible that the hijacking of the Wunder was supposed to result in its timely self-destruction. The need, if only ceremonial, to kill the Angel might explain why Mark.09 was doing all of that stuff as 4I was being triggered. At the same time... why leave something so important to the last minute? With the 12th it makes sense, since its death is a key part of powering up Eva 13, but Wunder, not so much.

This doesn't explain Mark.09, either. If Wunder is supposed to just be a normal Angel (albeit a really big one), then what's the deal with 09 being its true master? Is that just figurative speech for "its original core"? If so, why is its core a shapeshifting monster referred to as Adams no utsuwa? (The 12th Angel receives no such designation.)

The 3rd Angel parallels are very suggestive of something, though.

Since "Adam's Vessel" keeps getting thrown about with the Mark.09, I wonder if it means "Vessel" in the nautical sense - the sense of a ship. The Wunder may have been an extension of the Mark.09's body, with the Mark.09 serving as the core (much in the same way that Eva-01 now is). By ripping out the Wunder's old core, turning the rest of the ship's organic components into a skeleton and installing all the new artificial components, cannons, control mechanisms and the new power system based on Eva-01, they were taking over the Wunder. The Mark.09, having been Wunder's core turned into an Evangelion, went back and tried taking over the remains of its old body - which is why it shoots at the artificial components but slathers blue goop onto the skeletal components during the hacking process.

...that was a hell of a long shot.

Adam's Vessel = Adam no utsuwa
Utsuwa = 器 = bowl / vessel / container


Vessel as in naval = kan = 艦

Reichu wrote:This doesn't explain Mark.09, either. If Wunder is supposed to just be a normal Angel (albeit a really big one), then what's the deal with 09 being its true master? Is that just figurative speech for "its original core"? If so, why is its core a shapeshifting monster referred to as Adams no utsuwa? (The 12th Angel receives no such designation.)

When the Mk.09 regrows its head, it looks strikingly similar to the control center of the Wunder. Just tossing that out there.

Reichu wrote:The lack of ATF only means no soul, not no core. Kaworu does impale Eva 13 right in the place a core should be, suggesting there's one there. Also, Eva-06, which is almost certainly a reappropriated Adams, definitely has a core.

True, but the ATF-generating soul is normally housed in a core. If eva 13 had a core, it would be rather peculiar for it not to be capable of generating an ATF, unless the core was empty of a soul, which I guess is entirely possible. Regardless the lack of a soul indicated by its lack of an ATF means a different control system is needed to pilot eva 13, whereas in eva 01 we see that the control system and source of the ATF are usually synonymous: the personality that resides in the core.

Reichu wrote:A vessel by definition is something that contains something else. The Seele program is what is being contained, so it logically cannot be the VoA. Perhaps you meant to say that the mobile core-being is the VoA, as your idea holds that it contains an artificial Adams soul? Definite props for coming up with something I haven't heard before.

Sorry for the confusion. Indeed I meant that the Mark 09 is a simple full-core being "vessel" and that SEELE's program is the digitized Adams soul. The Wunder consequently being an analog to the eva's armor restraints, except likely made from the bodily technology of an angel rather than simple metal armor.

Reichu wrote:I have reservations, though, in as much as it's called Vessel of (the) Adams, full stop. The "false" terminology is used nowhere, despite being appropriate here (artificial Adams soul is not the true Adams) and being used extensively elsewhere in ENT. There is also the weird detail Mari mentioned, wherein Rei would either be absorbed by Mark.09 or become a VoA herself (the language is vague) if she didn't leave the Eva, which probably has relevance toward just what Mark.09 is and needs to be accounted for.

Well the vessel is a certain type of vessel regardless of what it happens to be being used to contain. SEELE's copy may not be an authentic adams, but the Mark 09 may be an authentic vessel used to store the copied soul. Perhaps implying that the Mark 09 itself is a much more prior entity to SEELE's program (which it would be, since the program is used to retake the Wunder after the Mark 09 was split from it). Regarding the Mari quote, either interpretation involves Rei being reduced to core, a blank slate used to store something. If I recall this was during the Mark.09 hacking scene? If the program involves the total assimilation of the physical body of the Mark.09 into the Wunder in order to re-integrate the adams soul into the superstructure, I can't see why it would make an exception of the pilot inside. That's kind of a consequence of this guess I'm making about the nature of the Mark.09: the thing is basically autonomous once SEELE's program is turned on, and the only soul that interacts with the unit is the program's. Rei q is just dead material which happens to be moving some levers in the machine sometimes.

Reichu wrote:

Where NERV weaponized the adams by building a physical control system on the soulless original body, SEELE did it by digitizing the soul of the adams and inserting it into an artificial construct of pure core.

I'm not sure how the analogy makes sense with the core-body in the picture.

The Mark.09 being the artificial construct made viable as a weapon by SEELE's program and eva 13 being a flesh giant without a soul but an artificial control system provided by the dual entry system.

Reichu wrote:This doesn't explain Mark.09, either. If Wunder is supposed to just be a normal Angel (albeit a really big one), then what's the deal with 09 being its true master? Is that just figurative speech for "its original core"? If so, why is its core a shapeshifting monster referred to as Adams no utsuwa? (The 12th Angel receives no such designation.)

This is kind of what I was aiming to figure out. We take the Wunder to be a man made weapon meant to artificially harness the power of an adams, integrating it in the same way an eva integrates a core and the soul within. The soul of an adams presumably being larger and more "powerful" than the soul of a human, consequently requiring a larger, full-body eva-shaped "vessel".

Infinite Freedom Machine wrote:True, but the ATF-generating soul is normally housed in a core.

This is an assumption taken from the original series that is not yet proven to have any relevance to ENT. (All we know is that a person can "become" a control system, and that an Eva core -- or at least 02's -- contains "sensitive hardware".) Blindly importing details from NGE is a big no-no, especially with the Evas, considering how much has changed.

Indeed I meant that the Mark 09 is a simple full-core being "vessel" and that SEELE's program is the digitized Adams soul.

The idea of them digitizing an Adams soul isn't out of the question, considering they have Kaworu available. However, this would raise the obnoxious question of why Mark.09, the housing for a fake, would be a VoA, and yet Kaworu, the housing for the real deal, would not.

Further annoying is that the VoA concept seems to have been a preexisting part of Mari's vocabulary, and for whatever reason 09's capacity to function without a head immediately causes her to conclude "ADAMS' VESSEL!". Mighty peculiar.

Well the vessel is a certain type of vessel regardless of what it happens to be being used to contain. SEELE's copy may not be an authentic adams, but the Mark 09 may be an authentic vessel used to store the copied soul.

The appellation would be hopelessly misleading, though. It would be like referring to something as a "glass of juice" when in fact it contains nothing but artificially colored and flavored crap. The glass is a glass, but the juice is not juice.

Regarding the Mari quote, either interpretation involves Rei being reduced to core, a blank slate used to store something. If I recall this was during the Mark.09 hacking scene?

Asuka was taking on Mark.09 solo at the time. (You don't remember that ridiculous panther?) Mari's comment was earlier, in Central Dogma, making the comment that much more cryptic IMO. (If you misremembered that, you probably need to revisit the film. The refresher could benefit the ideas you're developing, besides.)

The soul of an adams presumably being larger and more "powerful" than the soul of a human, consequently requiring a larger, full-body eva-shaped "vessel".

...not if Kaworu is any indication!

I'm generally inclined to regard this as an irresolvable clusterfuck until more data comes to light, at which point we'll find out whose speculation hit closest to home (assuming anyone gets even close). But that's merely me.

Times like these make me wish there existed a Evangelion 3.0 CRC because God knows how it would benefit us all at the moment.

The idea of them digitizing an Adams soul isn't out of the question, considering they have Kaworu available. However, this would raise the obnoxious question of why Mark.09, the housing for a fake, would be a VoA, and yet Kaworu, the housing for the real deal, would not.

Further annoying is that the VoA concept seems to have been a preexisting part of Mari's vocabulary, and for whatever reason 09's capacity to function without a head immediately causes her to conclude "ADAMS' VESSEL!". Mighty peculiar.

The fact that Kaworu houses an authentic adams' soul is an incidental natural quality of what he is viz. a particular angel. The name "Kaworu" refers to all of his essential identifying qualities (angel, sentient, AT-field generating, etc.). The essential identifying quality of the Mark.09 though could be singular in its function for housing the soul of an adams, so it makes sense to refer to it as only a VoA. I think Mari's exclamation here adds some credence to the theory, because the realization that 09 is made of pure core leading her to conclude that it's a VoA means that being made of pure-core is an essential identifying feature of a VoA. Basically, the thing can function without a head because it's a walking data-construct, and blowing off a piece of its body doesn't do any damage to the underlying program (the essential parts of which are perhaps contained under the protective SEELE plate).

The appellation would be hopelessly misleading, though. It would be like referring to something as a "glass of juice" when in fact it contains nothing but artificially colored and flavored crap. The glass is a glass, but the juice is not juice.

It still contains a kind of juice, right? Juice can be real or fake, and you don't need to preface it with either to describe the glass as a "glass of juice". To call a glass of fake juice a "glass of juice" is still correct when the point of the fake is that it's being used as a substitute for the real thing. Additionally, there's not really any reason why the digitized copy need be referred to as a "fake" if perfect digitization of the soul has been achieved in NTE.

Asuka was taking on Mark.09 solo at the time. (You don't remember that ridiculous panther?) Mari's comment was earlier, in Central Dogma, making the comment that much more cryptic IMO. (If you misremembered that, you probably need to revisit the film. The refresher could benefit the ideas you're developing, besides.)

I do need to rewatch Q (in fact I probably need to rewatch the entirety of eva), and that certainly makes the comment harder to explain. Given that context, presumably she meant that if Eva 13's instrumentality succeeded, it would have resulted in Rei's transformation to a vessel for some reason. I don't have any idea why that would be at the moment, but perhaps I will after watching it again.

...not if Kaworu is any indication!

Compared to an eva core though (which is what I was implying 09 was larger than), even Kaworu is a more complex vessel. If we add in the fact that the program was artificial and likely had SEELE-designed paramaters, that might explain the discrepancy between the Mark.09 and Kaworu if they're used to contain the same things.

This is an assumption taken from the original series that is not yet proven to have any relevance to ENT. (All we know is that a person can "become" a control system, and that an Eva core -- or at least 02's -- contains "sensitive hardware".) Blindly importing details from NGE is a big no-no, especially with the Evas, considering how much has changed.

If we assume that an AT field still requires a soul to generate though, it would make sense that Eva 13 would lack a core, as we've seen that the soul in Eva 1 is housed in its core (which is incidentally its control system as well, leading me to what I said about the double entry system being a compensation for the lack of an internal control system). Unless the generation of an AT field doesn't require a soul at all, which seriously reduces the thematic relevance (as well as physical explanation) of the thing, though I guess because it would be difficult to explain doesn't mean we can rule it out.

Infinite Freedom Machine wrote:I think Mari's exclamation here adds some credence to the theory, because the realization that 09 is made of pure core leading her to conclude [snip]

If she'd made that realization during her first scuffle with 09, perhaps she might have shared it with the rest of the Wunder crew, so that Asuka didn't have to waste time (and consequently sacrifice Eva-02 due to a lack of it) figuring out Mark.09's true nature! The concept of "Adams' Vessel" is known to the Bridge Crew, so I'm guessing that all relevant information known at the time has been given to all key personnel, including Asuka. In other words, nobody in Wille knew 09 was a core-being until it revealed its true colors after actually getting shot in the core by Eva-02.

So whatever Wille are using "VoA" to mean, we can't assume it has anything to do with being a walking, talking core. And on that note, why would the ability to function headless reveal any information about the Eva's contents (i.e., it being a vessel of anything)? Why couldn't that functionality just mean, say, that it has a backup dummy system that can take over if the pilot is incapacitated by critical damage to the Eva?

VoA being a preestablished idea within Wille means it may be a concept that extends beyond Mark.09 and possibly to some of the units that came and went during the timeskip. Hence we do not have the full context for why they were originally called that, what they all have in common, etc., and thus cannot begin to make sense of stuff in Q.

I'm going to pass on the other stuff for the time being.

Reichu wrote:If she'd made that realization during her first scuffle with 09, perhaps she might have shared it with the rest of the Wunder crew, so that Asuka didn't have to waste time (and consequently sacrifice Eva-02 due to a lack of it) figuring out Mark.09's true nature! The concept of "Adams' Vessel" is known to the Bridge Crew, so I'm guessing that all relevant information known at the time has been given to all key personnel, including Asuka. In other words, nobody in Wille knew 09 was a core-being until it revealed its true colors after actually getting shot in the core by Eva-02.

So whatever Wille are using "VoA" to mean, we can't assume it has anything to do with being a walking, talking core. And on that note, why would the ability to function headless reveal any information about the Eva's contents (i.e., it being a vessel of anything)? Why couldn't that functionality just mean, say, that it has a backup dummy system that can take over if the pilot is incapacitated by critical damage to the Eva?

VoA being a preestablished idea within Wille means it may be a concept that extends beyond Mark.09 and possibly to some of the units that came and went during the timeskip. Hence we do not have the full context for why they were originally called that, what they all have in common, etc., and thus cannot begin to make sense of stuff in Q.

I'm going to pass on the other stuff for the time being.

Right, I forgot about how surprised Asuka was when she found out that it was made of core. I mean, the only thing shooting 09 in the head revealed was that it was made of core, right? And Mari did conclude from that observation that it was a vessel, correct? Isn't the only thing (however inexplicable this is) that we can conclude is that Mari...didn't tell? Or Asuka forgot? I mean, even disregarding the core aspect, it was the fact that 09 didn't die when its head was blown off that tipped Mari off that it was a VoA. You would think that that durability wouldn't surprise Asuka either. I suppose it's possible that there are VoAs made partially of core, or with high regenerative abilities that aren't entirely core, but those seem pretty implausible given that the regenerative abilities are apparently indicative of the fact that something is a VoA.

Infinite Freedom Machine wrote:I mean, the only thing shooting 09 in the head revealed was that it was made of core, right?

Mari's sharp-shooting reveals no such thing, which is the point I was attempting to make. (We do learn that 09 had actual teeth and tongue in that head, though.)

GO. REWATCH!

I mean, even disregarding the core aspect, it was the fact that 09 didn't die when its head was blown off that tipped Mari off

It's unambiguous from NGE that Evas can survive extreme cranial damage or even decapitation. Given that the NTE equivalents don't seem any less resilient, I'm wary of assuming this is not the case for them as well. We did see that Eva-02 kept on going after a chunk of its brain was punched out, which would have killed a normal human.

If it's not the resilience nor the composition that indicated 09 was a VoA to Mari, what could it have even been?

Reichu wrote:GO. REWATCH!

Obviously I will have to do this.

The fact that 09 didn't die after getting its head blown off didn't seem like too much of a surprise since it led to a quick explanation.
After that we see Wille shooting for the core to disable it. The fact that it had a Seele mask protecting the core from the front was a clear annoyance. Going as far as shooting the main core through the entry plug hole all seems like standard procedure dating back to the angels: get the chest ball and it dies. The whole core reveal for the Mark.09 is saved to the very last moment. However it is set up by Mari casually reminding Asuka not to waste her bullets on the 12th Angel when that is going through the whole-core phase.

VoA and whole-core are not exclusives and everyone at Wille seems to know this, Asuka is just going to try the pew pew anyway on the 12th but she still pursues the central core attack on 09 until the reveal of that being whole core as well.

There doesn't need to be any digitizing of souls; Gendo explicitly stated that SEELE has changed the form of their souls. I don't think SEELE flashing up on Rei's screen is enough to use words like "programmed" either. SEELE simply aren't human. Gendo made an effort to convey that in his farewell speech. It's safe to say that they don't follow regular human physics. What I am getting at is more along the lines of paraphysics.

SEELE had their souls sealed(try saying that one fast) in 09's core. 09 was entirely a core. Therefore there must have been some transplanting done. Rei was not synced with 09 throughout the entire battle. She was a clumsy warrior that managed to lightly brush off Asuka. She struck the angel-inhabited Eva during a moment of vulnerability for everyone else. We can even see that, as Asuka tears at 09, inside Rei's plug, the synchronization screen is constantly resetting. Rei is clearly not synced, as she's looking around, wondering what the previous Rei would do.

I don't have very much of an issue believing that SEELE was contained in 09. 09 even showed the same motivations that SEELE did. Rei was not in control of 09 during these moments either. I broke it down in another post, but not only did 09 launch an attack on Wunder and 02, it also tried to reproduce, which is exactly what SEELE would do if their lifespan was limited. Not only did they attack the Wunder, they took control of it. This isn't a 1:1 level of reproduction but it is a way to pass on oneself.

SEELE wanted to be included in Instrumentality so their "souls could be purified", whatever that means Instrumentality does, that's why they let Gendo kill them, it doesn't make sense for them to go inhabit Mark.09 to "reproduce" using the Wunder as a womb.
Besides Mark.09 wasn't trying to reproduce, but to hijack the Wunder because it's his to begin with, with suits SEELE's plans since it put the Wunder and most of WILLE out of the battle.

Lazy to read all, since I came across this idea too few months back after rewatching the whole franchise. Kaworu obviously duplicates the missing control system aka soul in the core. And so Mari will do in Final. Maybe it is just a safety case after 01's awakening because actual pilot in entry plug is more controllable - you can just eject him when something isn't how you desired. When I think about it, it makes every Eva without soul in the core possible VoA.

What I thought I watched but will keep being reviewed forever:
-It's likely the adam/13 possessed a core and if it didn't gendo found a way in Ha because of Shinji carving out 00's core and putting it into megarei before absorb/megahug her. It's weird but reiQ's eva and 13 may be a core within core material:/ Idk the important thing is carving out a core from zeruel's core doesn't result into a cross explosion but instead in the emotional boom frames of core blood for 01 to shape.
-Kaworu has the lead in controlling 13 and angels soul or no soul but leaves Shinji alone who in turn takes over because...lilin superpower? The lilith corpse foreshadows things in a nutshell and I'm fine with that since lilith seems to take over on lances and adams turning things white and affecting said lances - gendo and seele likely knew because of what happened 14 years before. Anyway the heart of infinity image calling back to the piano sessions breaks apart and Shinji gets four hands.

I don't expect the evas rules to change from nge but anima builds from them in some ways I don't remember except they weren't very elegant.
Also "instrumentality" has always been weird to me, the italian translation is supposed to be faithful and goes for "perfezionamento" intended as evolution/developlement/perfectionism. Instrumentality refers more to the pilots making a tool of everyone else - or each othe in kaworu and Shinji case. Donno what's the actual Japanese meaning of the words.