A remake or a sequel?

Jäeger · Postby **Jäeger** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:14 pm

Sorrow wrote:The fact it's Evangelion is certainly a reason you should be more considering of the things you're seeing. A call back in another series might be a poster on a wall, or an iconic item in a character's bedroom; a character repeating a famous line, and other simple little nods that in no way fuel speculations.

The world from the very beginning having similar features to what we last saw at the very end of EoE is instantly striking to anyone who had seen it. So they're explained in-universe and it works. Considering Kaworu's words however, which everyone is aware of and agrees that they imply something that we're currently unaware of, it's logical to reconsider these visual cues because of how they can be used with Kaworu's words to strengthen the theory, and wonder whether the in-universe explanations aren't just ways to currently distract from their actual reason for being. Or maybe not. Perhaps the intention is to work both ways, so even those who haven't seen EoE, or care for it, have an understanding of these things that would otherwise be inexplicable to them.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything; I think someone who insists they absolutely are hints of a sequel are just as stupid as people who insist they absolutely are not. To understand that they might be of significance is the only appropriate position to hold, currently.

yep, but what most people name callbacks have their in universe explanation, given even by creators themselves. So no hidden significance there. They are not hiding anything. Using as an argument not the callback but just its use it's not an argument. Kaworu's words have no explanation, so it can mean something. Yeah, I can accept that.

Sorrow · Postby **Sorrow** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:25 pm

Infinite Freedom Machine: I believe what I said above more-or-less covers your question.

Just because we are given an explanation through an incomplete narrative[s]---[/s]not direct confirmation from the creator(s) as far as I'm aware[s]---[/s]doesn't mean it's the only intention. Coupled with something else that lacks an explanation entirely, yet points in the same direction, you would be covering your eyes on purpose if you claim you couldn't see how people think as such. We won't know until the final film whether or not these theories were on the mark.

You don't have to agree, but to claim it's unfounded is absurd.

Jäeger: I've already explained[s]---[/s]numerous times[s]---[/s]and I'm afraid I won't do so again. You're simply ignoring the fact of the matter.

Jäeger · Postby **Jäeger** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:32 pm

Sorrow wrote:I believe what I said above more-or-less covers your question.

Just because we are given an explanation through the narrative[s]---[/s]not confirmation from the creator(s) as far as I'm aware[s]---[/s]doesn't mean it's the only intention. Coupled with something else that lacks an explanation entirely, yet points in the same direction, you would be covering your eyes on purpose if you claim you couldn't see how people think as such. We won't know until the final film whether or not these theories were on the mark.

You don't have to agree, but to claim it's unfounded is absurd.

Jäeger, I've already explained and I'm afraid I won't do so again. You're simply ignoring the fact of the matter.

Let me explain for a last time

- I'm not saying that cannot be a connection between NGE, I just don't like it and I see no proof.
- It could be an interpretation of kaworu's words. one of many.
- If people are gonna support that theory, they better use other arguments than explained callbacks or "because you cannot prove the contrary, it can be true". they are the ones who have to prove something
- I can deal with the sequel theory in a time loop (reincarnation) way, but people who talk about direct sequel are just.....I better don't spit out because it could mean a beatiful ban :hahaha:

Infinite Freedom Machine · Postby **Infinite Freedom Machine** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:39 pm

Sorrow wrote:Infinite Freedom Machine: I believe what I said above more-or-less covers your question.

Just because we are given an explanation through an incomplete narrative[s]---[/s]not direct confirmation from the creator(s) as far as I'm aware[s]---[/s]doesn't mean it's the only intention. Coupled with something else that lacks an explanation entirely, yet points in the same direction, you would be covering your eyes on purpose if you claim you couldn't see how people think as such. We won't know until the final film whether or not these theories were on the mark.

If your second sentence here is a reference to Kaworu's line in 2.22: that it would make sense for him to say what he did if NTE was a sequel does not mean that NTE is more likely a sequel than not because he said it. When there are innumerable alternative explanations for the line that don't invoke sequel theory, using the line as support for sequel theory over an in-universe explanation seems arbitrary to me. That the line happens to occur in a setting that also has visual callbacks to NGE and EoE doesn't lend the line any larger effect on the likelihood of sequel theory, but just offers a larger number of things that would be perhaps well-explained were NTE a sequel.

To be clear I'm not saying there's anything wrong with putting forth the idea that NTE is a sequel. What I'm saying is that because certain things could be explained by sequel theory says very little (though not nothing) about the likelihood of sequel theory when everything that occurs within NTE can be explained in-universe in a variety of other, equally-probable ways.

Sorrow · Postby **Sorrow** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:50 pm

You say "happens to occur in a setting" as though it wasn't designed or arranged by someone with their own intentions. The idea is to guess at those intentions by what the designer has placed together. I agree with what you said about it offering a larger number of things that would be well explained if NTE were a sequel, and that's why you can see how people have come to the conclusion. As I can see why others are not so convinced.

For us to say whether they're right or wrong, at this time, is the problem. Not what you believe to be the case, or what they believe to be the case, but the certainty (authority) with which someone believes (demands) something to be the case. Everyone should be arguing for or against the theories, of course, but no one should be trying to shut down discussion because "face-palm; common sense what?" As if they can't see how others are reading into things that may still be touched upon later.

Infinite Freedom Machine · Postby **Infinite Freedom Machine** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:57 pm

Sorrow wrote:You say "happens to occur in a setting" as though it wasn't designed or arranged by someone with their own intentions. The idea is to guess at those intentions by what the designer has placed together. I agree with what you said about it offering a larger number of things that would be well explained if NTE were a sequel, and that's why you can see how people have come to the conclusion. As I can see why others are not so convinced.

For us to say whether they're right or wrong, at this time, is the problem. Not what you believe to be the case, or what they believe to be the case, but the certainty with which someone believes something to be the case. Everyone should be arguing for or against the theories, of course, but no one should be trying to shut down discussion because "face-palm; common sense what?" As if they can't see how others are reading into things that may still be touched upon later.

Well and that's why I brought up what I did: sequel theory is one idea about what the intentions behind NTE are, and to frame the entire discussion as a "sequel theory vs everything else" is giving sequel theory undue relevance when it's a single perspective on a variety of things that already serve a built-in in-universe function. Sequel theory tends to color every visual reference to EoE/NGE as support, but that shuts down the myriad of other angles of analysis available to those references and frames it as "is this somehow coherent with the idea that NTE is occurring after NGE".

Fundamentally, the idea that because Kaworu's line could be explained by sequel theory and because there are visual references to NGE, says absolutely nothing about whether NTE is a sequel or not. They're things that could be explained a variety of ways, so discussing sequel theory at all until it's confirmed seems like a rather pointless distraction from the wide variety of alternative angles of analysis that don't rely on ultimate confirmation of the status of the entirety of NTE as a binary yes it's a sequel/no it's not to make actual progress in the discussion.

Sorrow · Postby **Sorrow** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:57 pm

I couldn't disagree, but that isn't to say you shouldn't allow sequel theories to be discussed because they can't yet be confirmed or denied. If the same evidence that people use for sequel/loop theories can be discussed in other ways, then people can do so too.

That's a collective you, not just you.

Postby **pwhodges** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:43 pm

Sorrow wrote:For us to say whether they're right or wrong, at this time, is the problem. Not what you believe to be the case, or what they believe to be the case, but the certainty (authority) with which someone believes (demands) something to be the case.

It's curious for you to say that people shouldn't attempt to convince others of their beliefs. I thought that was rather the point of discussion and argument!

You should be trying to persuade me of what you think rather than saying I shouldn't try to persuade others of what I think.

Sorrow · Postby **Sorrow** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:54 pm

Yes, but you've made it very clear that you aren't to be convinced from anything we currently have. There isn't anything more to be said, but to defend the rights of people to discuss without the opposition trying to treat them like insufferable morons for even mentioning it.

You can try to persuade others all you like, or allow them to persuade you - whatever you fancy. Sighing every time they wish to have a discussion over potential new evidence is hindering them from analysing and gathering a potential argument to present amongst themselves, by having to concentrate on all the huffing and puffing.

Postby **pwhodges** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:01 pm

You seem to have a lot more invested in your view than I do in mine; certainly by a count of words and posts.

Sorrow wrote:Yes, but you've made it very clear that you aren't to be convinced from anything we currently have.

True - but is that my failure to get the point or yours to put it across? Or just that there is nothing convincing?

Sorrow · Postby **Sorrow** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:06 pm

Is that meant to be a slur?

I got involved in a discussion, and I'll reply whenever someone invites me to, or I deem it necessary. Word count might just mean that I feel it necessary to get my point across, thoroughly.

I'm not invested in the view of a sequel or loop. I've nothing riding on it.

Postby **pwhodges** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:08 pm

A slur? No, of course not. It's an observation.

Sorrow wrote:Yes, but you've made it very clear that you aren't to be convinced from anything we currently have.

True - but is that my failure to get the point or yours to put it across? Or just that there is nothing convincing there? It's not my duty to be convinced by something that doesn't convince me.

Sorrow · Postby **Sorrow** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:18 pm

And it isn't the duty of the theory to convince you, or anyone in particular. Your opposition does not render it null and void. Though, there is an obvious comparison to be made.

I would understand the opposition if we were to have all information available, and people were spreading it as though it were the absolute truth in the face of conclusive evidence - or lack thereof. Currently though, it's an attempt to understand where the work is going; there is no need for mockery or out right dismissal when the absence of the last section leaves it up for consideration.

Postby **NemZ** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:54 pm

Since this thread seems to have become just "Sorrow vs. everyone else" and nothing much is being accomplished I think it's time to take a break.

Edit - Break over, play nicely.

KobayashiRiku · Postby **KobayashiRiku** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:40 pm

Has anyone considered that its possibly both a remake and a sequel? That what happens in 1.0 & 2.0 is in fact all in Shinji's head and that 3.0 takes place post-EoE? While it IS a stretch, in that events WOULD have to happen slightly differently, it wouldn't be the first time Anno has outright changed the events in the series, EoTV vs EoE.

ChaddyManPrime · Postby **ChaddyManPrime** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:48 pm

KobayashiRiku wrote:Has anyone considered that its possibly both a remake and a sequel? That what happens in 1.0 & 2.0 is in fact all in Shinji's head and that 3.0 takes place post-EoE? While it IS a stretch, in that events WOULD have to happen slightly differently, it wouldn't be the first time Anno has outright changed the events in the series, EoTV vs EoE.

Yeah, look at my theory Good Sir.

KobayashiRiku · Postby **KobayashiRiku** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:58 pm

ChaddyManPrime wrote:Yeah, look at my theory Good Sir.

You're referring to the theory dump three or four pages back right?

Bagheera · Postby **Bagheera** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:59 pm

KobayashiRiku wrote:Has anyone considered that its possibly both a remake and a sequel? That what happens in 1.0 & 2.0 is in fact all in Shinji's head and that 3.0 takes place post-EoE? While it IS a stretch, in that events WOULD have to happen slightly differently, it wouldn't be the first time Anno has outright changed the events in the series, EoTV vs EoE.

There's no real change there, though (see the concurrency debate). Many of us feel that EoTV and EoE are compatible as is, so the notion that Anno would go with explicit changes in the manner you describe is a non-starter.

Vinyl collection at Discogs · Postby **Ornette** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:00 pm

KobayashiRiku wrote:Has anyone considered that its possibly both a remake and a sequel? That what happens in 1.0 & 2.0 is in fact all in Shinji's head and that 3.0 takes place post-EoE? While it IS a stretch, in that events WOULD have to happen slightly differently, it wouldn't be the first time Anno has outright changed the events in the series, EoTV vs EoE.

So somehow, post EoE, while on the Wunder, the conversion between Shinji and Misato/Ritsuko/Asuka and how he saved Rei is all supposed to still make sense? And upon seeing Kaworu (again) for the first time, Shinji simply forgot about him before, and how he killed him?

ChaddyManPrime · Postby **ChaddyManPrime** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:03 pm

KobayashiRiku wrote:You're referring to the theory dump three or four pages back right?

No the one on page 30 Good Sir.

EDIT: Here I'll just repost it for you

SPOILER: Show

Shinji was absorbed into Unit 01 in EoE. We do not see him burst into LCL nor do we see him become a red orb, we don’t even see him eject from Unit 01. He was absorbed just as he was in the Zeurel fight.

He’s been in Instrumentality for Fourteen years. While he’s been in there he’s been repeating the events of his life over and over again, each time is a little different though. The differences are due to his memories becoming warped, he’s been in there for so long that he’s been mixing things up and another contributing factor is the fact that none of the original cast is there to represent themselves in his mind.

He is unaware of the repeating, however his subconscious is not. It has been trying to tell him and us that this takes place after EoE, that’s why there been so many “callbacks”. It’s saying “Hey look! Don’t you remember this happening?” But he has been brainwashed by his stay thinking that what he sees is new and that this was always the way the world was.

There are four real people in his Instrumentality alongside him, they are, Shinji himself, the Rei we see near Shinji when he is using the payphone, Kaworu, and of course Mari. These people can interact and manipulate the reality Shinji’s finds himself in to a slight degree, mostly just by interacting with the fake versions of the other cast members. Kaworu and Rei have been in there the longest, Mari however is very new.

Mari is there in Shinji’s Instrumentality on a rescue mission. She is what causes the major divergence from the cycle that Shinji was repeating for those 14 years. She is there to get him out, so is Kaworu.

Their plan to get him out of Instrumentality is simple, make it so that he can get no further lost in the cycle. They wait for him to get absorbed and then put him and Unit 01 in a coma using the spear. This somehow puts his consciousness back into the real world but he isn’t awoken yet because as we know from the T.V series, only someone he cares about can awaken him from Unit 01.

Meanwhile during Shinji’s Fourteen year stay in Instrumentality…

People are coming out of the sea and the world is in shambles. The main cast and just about everyone else are pissed about what Shinji did or didn’t do, especially pissed are Misato and Asuka.

There is work to be done so NERV is reformed. Instead of using resources to rebuild HQ and the world they focus instead on building Evas for world security and ships for Lilith retrieval. Lilith’s body parts are stored in Terminal Dogma and kept under surveillance in case she starts regenerating again. Also Unit 02 is rebuilt during this time.

During this time a large object is caught on Satellite imaging slowly floating towards Earth, it’s Unit 01. They can’t destroy it and it’s currently asleep so they just imprison it.

Sometime during all this Gendo has returned. He is not a happy camper. He was not reunited with Yui like he wanted so he plans another Impact to finish the job.

Lilith has fully regenerated but Unit 02 and Unit 06 are there to shut her down with the spears.

A while later Misato is made aware of the fact that Gendo intends to start another Impact so she leads a rebellion. Pretty much everyone sides with her and they flee after being out numbered by the MPE’s. They take the ships and Unit 02 and 08.

They are constantly under attack by NERV, it goes on for years. In an act of desperation they decide to harness the power of Unit 01. They believe that since it has been inactive for so long they have nothing to worry about, if Shinji were coming back he’d be back by now, they are wrong.

Asuka and Mari take up the mission. They get there and are about to retrieve it when they get attacked. In a moment of weakness she calls out to Shinji for help and receives her answer, Shinji cannot resist the call of a loved one, he has awoken, Mari and Kaworu’s plan worked.

A remake or a sequel?

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