Gender as Text Field vs Radio Button

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Gob Hobblin
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:38 pm

Because it's fair, not difficult to implement (in terms of adding a third 'check' option), more inclusive, and at least partially recognizing of the way people feel about and choose to present themselves.

You've made a sound argument for the technical reasons against it, but I still fail to see why you are opposed to it on it simply being a 'minority of a minority.' This in and of itself is an argument for a lot of wrongheaded decisions in the past.
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Postby Xard » Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:39 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:Then you start throwing around phrases like 'bullshit entitlement,' 'moronic identity policies,' and a whole lot of other things that are just fucking nasty. Crude stuff. It may have started with Chuckman making a joke, but it led to a discussion that wasn't a bad one to have: something to consider and to perhaps be enlightened by.


Tough love. We have people who genuinely need psychiatric help in the world who are increasingly put outside range of help because radical ideologues and Gramscian culture warriors have co-opted science and best interest of mentally ill people in their misguided fight against global-white-male-cisnormative-capitalist-patriarchy-of-Mordor in huge fit of ideological, intellectual and spiritual lunacy.

The people who most suffer in this equation are those who poor chaps who end up mutilating and desecrating their bodies in painful and unfulfilling fit of make believe and the reason they do this is because the bogus establishment allows them to do so and positively eggs them on, as if cutting off their dick, carving a vagina and popping hormone pills for rest of one's life is action that benefits the individual - or even changes their sex. Like every great lie there's grain of truth in gender theory - culture and parenting do indeed affect expressions to gender identities to certain degree - and it's because of this people passively participating in modern media osmosis can be co-opted gruesomely to support patronised insanity.


I don't really care how saying this makes people feel because I care far more about truth and what is actually good for individuals suffering from trans identity issues. I know it doesn't mean jackshit in the big picture whether or not EGF collapses too in face of this madness but I do not wish to idly stand by and watch flood of filth cover my backyard and say: "hey, it's the spirit of the times. I might as well not speak at all for sake of my fellow man because I probably won't have much impact."


This is the first reason why I'm against this change. Second is because there's lack of legitime demand for change vs. the amount of work implementing said demand would take. Also the claim it's a "good thing" we're having this discussion right now is immeaditly debunked by the simple observation no one has ever before questioned legitimacy of current gender boxes - and in worst case scenario board staff will actually take action to implement change "just in case".
Last edited by Xard on Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Catamari » Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:44 pm

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:Because we can and it doesn't hurt or inconvenience anybody else?
That is not correct. It does inconvenience people, myself included, and I'll go out on a limb and say it will inconvenience Tank and Xard, as well. Partly because a gender option, as a whole, is an unnecessary feature. But also, like I've thrice mentioned, the pronoun problem.

The gender dichotomy makes referring to people simple and to the point. The whole purpose of pronouns is to streamline language. With additional genders come the necessity of additional pronouns, at which point the entire purpose of pronouns falls apart when you have to remember who is what. The dichotomy of he and she (they is used primarily for groups or for people whose genders you do not know) is simple and to the point, and used to generalize when the context of the conversation is clear. It is awkward and robotic to have use someone's name repeatedly, hence the necessity of pronouns.
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:46 pm

Xard: There's a difference between tough love and being a jerk: you want to give tough love, than you don't couch it in aggressive and confrontational language. That's not trying to sell a point, that's picking a fight. If you can't argue you're point without making it a diatribe, then there's not point in arguing it.

You claim to be speaking for the good of these individuals, but you aren't: you're speaking for YOURSELF. You're describing what you feel is right, which is in opposition to what these individuals themselves have already fought for, and in many places are suffering for it in very real ways. You act like it's a new phenomenon to accommodate alternate gender identity, when it is something as old as written history, and the idea of a 'third' (or fourth, or even fifth gender) is something that has existed, does exist, and will continue to exist despite your 'tough love' in going after it.

And it's irrelevant if we never had the conversation before: we're having it now. This is a conversation about the topic: you can't say it's 'debunked' if we're actually in the middle of talking about it.

Catamari: He/her/them/it. There are the pronouns that are acceptable. I still fail to see how it is a massive inconvenience to you or anyone if a gender is listed as Other. I mean, using the 'absentee' option that's been touted as an alternative, how is that better? You still have the same 'pronoun problem.'
Last edited by Gob Hobblin on Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Chuckman » Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:46 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:Tough love. We have people who genuinely need psychiatric help in the world who are increasingly put outside range of help because radical ideologues and Gramscian culture warriors have co-opted science and best interest of mentally ill people in their misguided fight against global-white-male-cisnormative-capitalist-patriarchy-of-Mordor in huge fit of ideological, intellectual and spiritual lunacy.


Chaos never died. This is our time now.

The people who most suffer in this equation


...are people dealing with people telling them how they feel. Sufferers of gender dysphoria must be deluded or lying about their experiences.

I don't really care how saying this makes people feel because I care far more about truth


Nothing is true.

This is the problem of philosophy. You draw all of these grand conclusions that mean nothing. You are the economists of art. I call the philosopher an incompetent sorcerer.

There is no universal truth, only subjective personal experience. By what authority do you tell people their own experience of their feelings and consciousness is wrong?
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Postby Rosenakahara » Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:48 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:The people who most suffer in this equation are those who poor chaps who end up mutilating and desecrating their bodies in painful and unfulfilling fit of make believe and the reason they do this is because the bogus establishment allows them to do so and positively eggs them on, as if cutting of their dick, carving a vagina and popping hormone pills for rest of one's life is action that benefits the individual. Like every great lie there's grain of truth in gender theory - culture and parenting do indeed affect expressions to gender identities to certain degree - and it's because of this people passively participating in modern media osmosis can be co-opted gruesomely to support patronised insanity.

You didn't even look at the things i linked, not that i expected anything more from you.
Look i wouldn't even be stuck in this stupid conversation if i didn't have my best and only friend and i had to see her deal day by day with shit like this from assholes like YOU. What she did was not self mutilation, her body did not match who she really was so she changed it, nobody pressured her into this, hell her own fucking family threw her out on the street because they think like you do and it makes me sick, YOU make me sick, i could throw evidence after evidence at you and you still would not listen, you have not listened, you just ignore it because it contradicts what is inside your little bubble of a world, you hate what is not like you and that is just pathetic.

This will be removed, i might even get a ban, i dont care anymore, fuck you xard you are literally the worst person i have ever had the displeasure of knowing.

Yes my emotions has oh so gotten the better of me but even more so than insulting me insulting the people i care about, even indirectly is never, ever a good idea.
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Postby caragnafog dog » Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:52 pm

View Original PostRosenakahara wrote:Yes my emotions has oh so gotten the better of me but even more so than insulting me insulting the people i care about, even indirectly is never, ever a good idea.
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Postby Xard » Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:25 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:You claim to be speaking for the good of these individuals, but you aren't: you're speaking for YOURSELF. You're describing what you feel is right, which is in opposition to what these individuals themselves have already fought for, and in many places are suffering for it in very real ways. You act like it's a new phenomenon to accommodate alternate gender identity, when it is something as old as written history, and the idea of a 'third' (or fourth, or even fifth gender) is something that has existed, does exist, and will continue to exist despite your 'tough love' in going after it.


You seem to assume I'm woefully unaware of "third genders" of Thailand that have existed since time immemorial or history of human sexuality. Fair enough. That assumption is also completely off the base. I've done my homework as far as this stuff goes, thank you very much. Mental disorders in general aren't a new thing either if you haven't noticed. People have also practiced human sacrifice, mass burying people alive, contacting gods through temple prostitution, character forming pederasty and whatever - it hardly matters in itself. What matters are such cultural practices rooted in sound morals and sense. That people have been dysfunctional since day before yesterday rather than yesterday doesn't really prove we aren't dealing with dysfunction.

lol  SPOILER: Show
Image


What is genuinely new though is this sort of radical gender constructionism. Gender and sexual categories of ancients often differed in subtle and not so subtle ways from ours but you don't really find anyone claiming gender (whether male or female or fabled "third gender") was just artificial construct before loony years of 20th Century.

View Original PostChuckman wrote:...are people dealing with people telling them how they feel. Sufferers of gender dysphoria must be deluded or lying about their experiences.


That's quite correct. They are deluded whereas their biological, genetic makeup isn't. It doesn't really matter if the cause is straightforwardly biological (say, inborn brain dysfunction) or result of substance abuse or traumatic upbringing or whatever.

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Nothing is true.

This is the problem of philosophy. You draw all of these grand conclusions that mean nothing. You are the economists of art. I call the philosopher an incompetent sorcerer.

There is no universal truth, only subjective personal experience. By what authority do you tell people their own experience of their feelings and consciousness is wrong?


SPOILER: Show
Image


Gasp. Fair enough then, I bow when faced with the infinite wisdom and logical airtightness of Chuckman argument. :worship:

I still don't really get your problem with me though. By what authority do you tell me I can't tell people their own experience of their feelings and consciousness is wrong? My subjective experience tells me I'm in the right here and I have every right in the world to subjugate human mittens who fail to see this.

View Original PostRosenakahara wrote:You didn't even look at the things i linked, not that i expected anything more from you.


There's nothing worthy of commenting in those studies that aren't even news to me. In the first place no such studies prove one thing whatsoever about the causal order given the rather mindboggling facts of brain plasticity. Secondly even if gender dysphoria was rooted in brain biology only thing this would prove is that these people suffer from biological damage just like with any other cognitive impairment caused by issues in physical brain. If that's the case right thing to do would be to device medical cures and/or surgery techniques to fix the brain and thus the man. It's far better option than mutilating one's body in make-believe play as (wo)man.

View Original PostRosenakahara wrote:Look i wouldn't even be stuck in this stupid conversation if i didn't have my best and only friend and i had to see her deal day by day with shit like this from assholes like YOU. What she did was not self mutilation, her body did not match who she really was so she changed it, nobody pressured her into this, hell her own fucking family threw her out on the street because they think like you do and it makes me sick, YOU make me sick, i could throw evidence after evidence at you and you still would not listen, you have not listened, you just ignore it because it contradicts what is inside your little bubble of a world, you hate what is not like you and that is just pathetic.


Rose, unfortunately it isn't quite as simple as that. I have a friend too, a girl even, who has "never felt comfortable" as a girl and has opted for hormone therapy and eventual surgery to change her sex. I learned about this last January so almost year ago. At that point I was a bit surprised but shrugged it off quickly and congratulated her for "fixing herself" and freeing herself from this fatal flaw of her birth. It was just obvious to me she was doing the right thing.

Now I can't say I feel that way and the only difference is that during last year or so I've actually spent a lot of my free time reading on gender theory and sexuality. That's how recently and strongly I pulled 180 on my opinion and it had everything to do with what I learned about "gender theory" and related issues. It might break YOUR little bubble world but reading up on sexuality, biology and relevant psychology may reverse one's stance on issues in more than one direction.

It's much worse this way for myself too as far as that girl is considered. What's done is done and I can't do anything to change the course she's on and I can't even bring it up in person the few times we meet in any sensible fashion. So instead I have to watch by from the distance when I see someone I care about do something to herself that in final analysis won't be good for her at all.

As for the strongly rhetoric language I use it's just counteracting against the harebrained nonsense coming from most directions. I don't hope to convince anyone on internet board about a topic that is deeply personal to posters like you (and thus involves pyramid schemes of rationalizations) but perhaps I can show similar language can be applied to the new powers that be that "activists" (more like intellectual terrorists with their Mein Kampf shocktrooper tactics) have used for a long time. On faulty basis too.

View Original PostRosenakahara wrote:This will be removed, i might even get a ban, i dont care anymore, fuck you xard you are literally the worst person i have ever had the displeasure of knowing.


I can assure you the feeling isn't mutual. The way I see it you're confused teenage girl with probably troubled background I can't even begin to imagine so I feel rather ashamed about the one time I really lost my nerves replying to you. I don't wish anything bad for you or any of your friends. It is just that what as far as I can tell would be good for you (or your friend) is very different from what you want.

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Postby NemZ » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:47 pm

Clearly nothing good will come of continuing to discuss this here. Opinions have been expressed and are not likely to change, so it's a staff matter from here on out.
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