Hands and Eyes (and Cores) in NGE

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Hands and Eyes (and Cores) in NGE

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Tue May 15, 2007 9:39 am

My last post in the "Opening Scene from 25'" inspired me to start this thread.

Hands (re-post):

Eva Yojimbo wrote:I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before, but there's a constant running theme of hands throughout the series. It's interesting that Lilith (and supposedly Adam's) Doors of Guf are in the palms of their hands. What are the Guf Doors? The doors through which life/souls enter and exit. What do we see in Shinji's masturbation but the substance from which life comes from in his hand.

These constant running themes are all throughout NGE and EoE is where they were all pulled together.


Eva Yojimbo wrote:
tinmeigut wrote:So full of imagination you are. I wonder if these are only mere coincidence.
Very doubtful as this theme of hands is reiterated time and time again throughout the series:

*Shinji's constant clenching/unclenching of his hand
*Gendo fusing Adam's body into his hand.
*Shinji masturbating and it ending up in his hand.
*Kaworu's constant hiding of his hands (watch 24').
*The piercing of Sho's hands by the MPE's Lances.
*View of Adam as Giant of Light's hands during 2I (the last shot we see of the Light Giant before the views of 2I's effect from space).
*An eerily similar occurance when GNK reaches out with his hands to grab the ToL Sho in EoE (thanks to Reichu for pointing the last two out).
*Finally, the reveal that the Doors of Guf are in the hands with Lilith during EoE.

That would be ALOT of coincidences.


Eyes:

*The black holes in Adam's eyes during 2I
*The black holes in GNR's eyes during 3I
*The red eyes of both Kaworu and Rei

Finally, to bring them together, we have all 3 Evas suffering from hand/eye injuries:

*We see Rei's arm/eye bandaged when Shinji arrives at Nerv.
*We see Sho's arm/eye damaged in the 1st episode fight with Sachiel
*We see Ni's (and Asuka's) arm/eye damaged in EoE.

Core

*Black hole where Adam's core would be in 2I
*Piercing of Sho's core in 3I with the Lance, and the reveal of a black something inside (again, thanks to Reichu for this find).
*The idea that souls likely reside in the core.


This is everything I can think of (at the moment), so any theories on how all of these things are linked? I'm thinking right now that the black cores, as holders of souls, is very reminiscent to the Black Moon: The place where LDO's souls originated from. In 3I we see souls flowing from the Earth, to the hands (Guf Doors) of Lilith, into the Black Moon. Where do eyes fit into this equation?
Last edited by Eva Yojimbo on Tue May 15, 2007 10:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Reichu » Tue May 15, 2007 9:50 am

"Black holes" might be somewhat misleading, whether you're referring to eyes OR cores.

I think the "black eyes" represent the "intense" state of Seed eyes, whereas in Evas the eyes glow white. Similarly, the Seeds are characterized by extreme paleness, while the Evas are all rather swarthy.

Souls residing inside the core is a matter of fact; "likely" doesn't cut it.

In 3I we see souls flowing from the Earth, to the hands (Guf Doors) of Lilith, into the Black Moon.

Both at the same time. (Animated GIF)
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Tue May 15, 2007 10:12 am

Reichu wrote:"Black holes" might be somewhat misleading, whether you're referring to eyes OR cores.

I think the "black eyes" represent the "intense" state of Seed eyes, whereas in Evas the eyes glow white. Similarly, the Seeds are characterized by extreme paleness, while the Evas are all rather swarthy.
I didn't like the "black holes" but couldn't think of anything else to call it.

Reichu wrote:
Both at the same time. (Animated GIF)
Which is the weirdest thing... By the looks of that it's almost as if the souls are being sucked from the Black Moon into Lilith's hands... Perhaps that's the order and not the other way around - Moon to hands as opposed to hands to Moon? Can we make anything out of this?
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Postby Reichu » Tue May 15, 2007 10:50 am

Eva Yojimbo wrote:By the looks of that it's almost as if the souls are being sucked from the Black Moon into Lilith's hands... Perhaps that's the order and not the other way around - Moon to hands as opposed to hands to Moon?

Eh? The souls are rising up and spiraling into the Black Moon, but some are being drawn into the Doors at the same time.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Tue May 15, 2007 10:56 am

Reichu wrote:
Eh? The souls are rising up and spiraling into the Black Moon, but some are being drawn into the Doors at the same time.
At the same time implies to me that they're both spiraling into the Black Moon and Lilith's hands seperately. Look at the flow of the souls: They're spiraling around the Black Moon, but seemingly being sucked FROM the Moon into Lilith's hands.

I'm not sure exactly how to phrase what I'm seeing. Notice there are still parts of the Moon that are "dark" (how does that play into it?).
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Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
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Postby Reichu » Tue May 15, 2007 11:12 am

Eva Yojimbo wrote:Look at the flow of the souls: They're spiraling around the Black Moon, but seemingly being sucked FROM the Moon into Lilith's hands.

Nothing's being sucked out of the Moon (the movement is one-way), but some of the souls heading for the Moon are being diverted into the Doors.

Notice there are still parts of the Moon that are "dark" (how does that play into it?).

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Postby Shin-seiki » Tue May 15, 2007 11:18 am

Image
Image

Two ways of depicting the same concept?
Perhaps inside GNR we're seeing things in "Metabiology-Vision", as it were.

One does wonder how those two cuts are supposed to relate to each other...

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Postby Szmitten » Tue May 15, 2007 11:23 am

I'd say it's just a visual motif.

And because you asked for one in the other thread (plus boredom and wanting to do something)...

Image

(Off-topic but, Reichu, if it's a major problem with the Eva commentary, I don't mind taking screenshots of the individual cuts from Renewal)

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Postby Reichu » Tue May 15, 2007 11:34 am

Shin-seiki wrote:Two ways of depicting the same concept?
Perhaps inside GNR we're seeing things in "Metabiology-Vision", as it were.

One does wonder how those two cuts are supposed to relate to each other...

My interpretation of the second image:

- The "place" in question is Lilith's Chamber of Guf.
- The innumerable corpses* = human souls. (Straightforward.)
- The red moon represents Lilith's soul in some way (round and red = souls, cores).
- The three streams of Rei are the manifestations of Lilith who retrieved and carried the souls here -- two entered via the palms, the other in through the top of the Black Moon. They are returning to "Lilith Soul Central" (the red moon).

Hope that makes some modicum of sense.

* ...visible as no more than tan-colored blobs in the image Shin-seiki posted.

@szmitten: The cum-hand's counterpart is actually this:

Image
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Tue May 15, 2007 11:38 am

And what's the common theme in the last 3 "hand" shots? We're shown things that are part of making up lives: Blood, semen, and an embryo/S2.

Reichu wrote:Nothing's being sucked out of the Moon (the movement is one-way), but some of the souls heading for the Moon are being diverted into the Doors.
I don't want to say I disagree, simply that I'm seeing something else I might not be expressing fully: Look at the souls flowing into the palms of Lilith. That red line of souls going INTO her hands appear to be coming from the Black Moon (the red line stretches from her palms to the Black Moon afterall).

Reichu wrote:
Image
Where else do we see this theme of Red and Black? Cores and Eyes, no? The most startling one that comes to mind is the shot of GNR's eyes. I tried to find that image but couldn't (didn't remember where it was at).

BTW, what's with the right hand/right hand/right hand in the first 3 and then left hand switch with the cross?
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Postby Szmitten » Tue May 15, 2007 12:03 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:And what's the common theme in the last 3 "hand" shots? We're shown things that are part of making up lives: Blood, semen, and an embryo/S2.


Eva Yojimbo wrote:BTW, what's with the right hand/right hand/right hand in the first 3 and then left hand switch with the cross?


If the right hand contains the physical stuff needed for life, then the left hand is carrying....what? The soul if you want a dualist philosophical look into this. I don't really remember what Misato's cross specifically "means".

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Tue May 15, 2007 12:11 pm

Szmitten wrote:
If the right hand contains the physical stuff needed for life, then the left hand is carrying....what? The soul if you want a dualist philosophical look into this. I don't really remember what Misato's cross specifically "means".
Once again we're back to this repetition of seperation of body and soul... Repeated here through the hands? Very possibly.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue May 15, 2007 1:01 pm

I will add for the record (again?) that the continued use of the staring-at-hand motif, meant that I missed the added extras in the last of those three shots in Szmitten's post when I watched the movie, by just taking it as yet another "staring at his hand" episode. It wasn't until after I started trawling the net that it was brought to my attention.
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Postby Sachi » Tue May 15, 2007 11:22 pm

maybe its referring to his hands because the hands have the power to build and destroy, and now Shinji is realizing "Its all within my hands"

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Wed May 16, 2007 4:52 am

Sachiel_13 wrote:maybe its referring to his hands because the hands have the power to build and destroy, and now Shinji is realizing "Its all within my hands"
Another interesting theory. I remember noting in the Sandbox scene that that's what the relationship between Shinji and the sand castle seemed to be about (the ability to create and destroy).

Beyond the meta-series aspects, can anyone think of some way these themes have relevence in the narrative?
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Postby Sachi » Wed May 16, 2007 8:00 am

i remember in the series, theres that episode (i forget which one) when Shinji is on the train and he keeps looking at his hand, and flexing it, i think its ep 3

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Fri May 18, 2007 8:41 am

Sachiel_13 wrote:i remember in the series, theres that episode (i forget which one) when Shinji is on the train and he keeps looking at his hand, and flexing it, i think its ep 3
Shinji flexes his hand ALOT throughout the series. The one that springs immediately to mind is his returning to Nerv to pilot Sho in ep. 19 when he encounters Gendo.
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We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby sensei_juice » Sat May 19, 2007 4:08 pm

Which hand does Shinji flex repeatedly? Someone care to go look that up, if we're talking duality?
Things I'm surprised nobody's mentioned yet:
Rei's "Then tell me, what is your hand for?" line, in keeping with the existentialist theme of the other two questions, seems to be giving Shinji the choice to create or destroy.
The final scene has a clear duality as well: strangulation v. the caress. That could be another aspect of Rei's line.
Eva Yojimbo, since you wanted narrative significance, somebody - maybe you - mentioned in your Theory of Impacts thread the idea that because of the mechanics of 3I, Shinji had the choice between life and death, which woud result in the creation of a new race or Instrumentality. There's also the significance of the final scene, which I'll have to ask somebody else to think about seeing as I'm quite busy right now.
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Postby Sachi » Tue May 22, 2007 11:19 pm

i think its his right

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Postby slothen » Wed May 23, 2007 7:29 am

obviously his right hand.
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