Hopefully it isn't just a red herring. It's been mentioned twice now, and I'd really love something to come of it.

Since it kept appearing in most than half of Gendo's scenes in Q, I'm sure that Anno didn't forgot about it and that it'll serve for something.

Here's all the speculation on the key. I still have no concrete ideas about it myself, and I'm not interested in shitposting random theories about it.

When I saw this scene I thought it was because Shinji would have more maybe sympathy for his father. Never really did take this a quite a big scene. The only reason why Shinji would be sympathetic is because Neo-Nerv at that point hasn't shown Shinji any hate like Wille has, he would be more willing to help them. Which still happens anyway due to Kaworu.

Nothing comes of this scene anyway besides partially making Fuyu break off and explain to Shinji some of the truth.

^
Not even that, since Fuyu talking to Shinji and breaking him even more with his revelations about Yui and Rei was part of the plan! Fuyu even comments on it once Shinji leaves. ("What a wretched role I'm playing.")

I really think that Fuyu wanted to turn Shinji to their size, to make him see that their plans are the best course of action for mankind, but Gendo didn't wanted it, maybe he didn't wanted his son to see just how far down his father had to sink, maybe he's just afraid of him, or maybe he wanted to keep him in the dark to be sure that WILLE won't know anything about his plans even if they get their hands on Shinji, or maybe it's a all of the above.

ElMariachi wrote:^
Not even that, since Fuyu talking to Shinji and breaking him even more with his revelations about Yui and Rei were part of the plan! Fuyu even comment on it once Shinji leaves. ("What a wretched role I'm playing.")

I really think that Fuyu wanted to turn Shinji to their size, to make him see that their plans are the best course of action for mankind, but Gendo didn't wanted it, maybe he didn't wanted his son to see just how far down his father had to sink, maybe he's just afraid of him, or maybe he wanted to keep him in the dark to be sure that WILLE won't know anything about his plans even if they get their hands on Shinji, or maybe it's a all of the above.

Never thought of it like that, I really think Fuyu is slightly breaking off, but this is a counter to that. Gendo wouldn't want Shinji to be apart of it, I agree with that, maybe we will find out in 3.0+1.0.

BC Baron wrote:As far as I'm concerned, at this point there would be nothing to be gained by Shinji learning anything about Gendo.

Nada.

Rather, I think it may have been beneficial for all parties involved if the Commander could've taken the time to try and understand his son (preferably pre-timeskip). Not by having him followed by Section 2 agents or reading progress reports submitted by Misato/Ritsuko, but by getting off his ass and taking a second to consider a point of view other than his own. The problem is that the full extent of his curiosity regarding Shinji begins and ends with psych evaluations for the sole purpose of manipulating the kid into initiating impacts left and right.

In any case, even if Gendo were to finally receive that lobotomy he so desperately requires and could then somehow muster up an iota of genuine concern for Shinji, it's way too late in the game to start now. He should've been making an honest effort about two and a half apocalypses ago (y'know back when it might've made a damn bit of a difference).

Gendou actually did take the time to reach out to Shinji. If you'll recall, back in 2, he agreed to have dinner with him and Rei. Regardless of where his impulse for agreement came from, the outcome would have been quality time with his son. When Gendou was heading to the dinner, we can see him driven towards Shinji(just before the car hard brakes and turns around because of the Asuka incident). The car turns around just a short bit behind Shinji, the implication being that it was traveling towards him, perhaps because Gendou was planning on picking Shinji up.

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:The real question should be “Why would Fuyutsuki think Shinji should benefit from seeing Gendo’s actions? Wouldn’t that potentially ruin Gendo’s plans, whatever they are?”

A valid point.

ElMariachi wrote:^
I really don't see how neo-NERV could draw anything from Shinji anymore, even if her gets out of his funk. Besides that would be really ridiculous to have the hero manipulated into triggering the apocalypse for the third time in a row!

Also, even in Gendo's initial plan 14 years ago, his role was limited to awake EVA-01, presumably Gendo would take the lead from here with the Key of N, and so far the plan seems to be similar, except that he replaced EVA-01 by EVA-13.

I don't see how neo-NERV could not want anything more from Shinji. He's been shown to be severely important for the plot of the DSS. I highly doubt they're just going to leave the Third Child alone like that. Sure, the Key is still there... but I doubt that disqualifies Shinji from the plans altogether. Shinji also played out another role 14 years ago, one you are overlooking, which is simply being an Eva pilot to defeat the angels. Just because there are ulterior plans in motion, doesn't mean Gendou and NERV staff can abandon their angel-fighting duties(which still appear to be legitimate on the surface, even with Q).

For the key: The twisting symbology of the key ends at the neck of the nervous system, which is where the EOE-Rei symbology also happens to end. It's very likely that the Key is going to be used forcefully, perhaps in the same way with Adam in NGE. But even so, I don't think that disqualifies Shinji from the whole process of instrumentality.

Edit for "the key is a red herring"



Red herring my ass. The key is a throwback to GNR in EOE.

unitM wrote:I don't see how neo-NERV could not want anything more from Shinji. He's been shown to be severely important for the plot of the DSS. I highly doubt they're just going to leave the Third Child alone like that. Sure, the Key is still there... but I doubt that disqualifies Shinji from the plans altogether. Shinji also played out another role 14 years ago, one you are overlooking, which is simply being an Eva pilot to defeat the angels. Just because there are ulterior plans in motion, doesn't mean Gendou and NERV staff can abandon their angel-fighting duties(which still appear to be legitimate on the surface, even with Q).

What!?
The Angels are dead since 14 years (okay not exactly with the 12th and Kaworu) and it's been a long time since SEELE and Gendo have been uncovered as a bunch of lunatics plotting to destroy the world.

And Shinji only played a role as back-up Impact Trigger in case something happens to Kaworu, if there wasn't that seal over Lilith's Chamber SEELE wouldn't even had needed Shinji in their plan, and that goes only in SEELE's scenario, for Gendo so far Shinji's usefulness was to awake EVA-01 with killing the Angels as a nice bonus, and later to serve as his unwitting instrument to get awake EVA-13 and rid of Kaworu, nothing more.
After what happened in Q it's very doubtful that WILLE will let Shinji escape again, they will prefer to outright kill him if that happens again, and Gendo probably knows it.

ElMariachi wrote:What!?
After what happened in Q it's very doubtful that WILLE will let Shinji escape again, they will prefer to outright kill, and Gendo probably knows it.

Maybe he's counting on them to outright kill him? Considering Misato and Wille both acted within, 'expected parameters"?

I really doubt it'll go that far, if anything Misato will protect him, I'm talking about the case if neo-NERV manages to abduct him again or Shinji tries to escape.

unitM wrote:Gendou actually did take the time to reach out to Shinji. If you'll recall, back in 2, he agreed to have dinner with him and Rei. Regardless of where his impulse for agreement came from, the outcome would have been quality time with his son.

I disagree completely. IMO that's not an example of Gendo making any effort to reach out. All he did was accept an invitation from Rei, who by the way, was the one taking all the initiative to expand her horizons by teaching herself how to cook and going outside of her comfort zone by inviting others (probably for the first time ever) over to her apartment.

My interpretation of this subplot in 2.22 was that Shinji served as the inspiration for these developments in the First Child by preparing a meal and sharing it with everyone during the fieldtrip sequence at the water purification facility, not giving her any grief about being a vegetarian (unlike Asuka), and just generally paying attention to her. Apparently everybody on this forum seems to think this was just about the worst idea ever conceived plus completely unrealistic, since IRL you never see examples of anybody attempting to reciprocate someone else's kindness.

Also, "quality time with Gendo" must be the very definition of an oximoron, as only time spent as far away from him as possible could actually hold any sort of value.

When Gendou was heading to the dinner, we can see him driven towards Shinji(just before the car hard brakes and turns around because of the Asuka incident). The car turns around just a short bit behind Shinji, the implication being that it was traveling towards him, perhaps because Gendou was planning on picking Shinji up.

My only inference in that scene was that they were both heading in the same direction towards Rei's apartment. I do not believe for one second that Gendo would've told his driver to stop to pick up Shinji. When have we ever seen the Commander go out of his way to make anything more convenient for his son? Look at all the times during the original series and movies when Shinji is heading to and from either school or NERV. He is shown walking through the streets of Tokyo III, taking the subway, or getting a lift from Misato. Even at the beginning of 2.22 they're both at the cemetery together visiting Yui's grave and Gendo leaves abruptly in his VTOL, never once offering his kid a ride out of there.

Based on comments from some of the other Rebuild threads I've seen, it would appear that a bunch of people around here believe the aborted dinner party would've been this great father-son moment, had Bardiel simply not chosen that day to introduce itself to Unit-03 in Matsushiro. However, I'm convinced that even if they went through with it and somehow, for once in his miserable life, Gendo managed not to behave like a total asshole, it still would have been WAY too little, WAY too late. As far as I'm concerned, one isolated meal (especially when Rei was the one doing all the work) and one brief instance of expressing your approval to your kid after he suffers the mental equivalent of stigmata while catching an angel out of the sky, cannot even begin to offset years of neglect.

I'm with BC Baron here: even if by some miracle Gendo doesn't avoid Shinji like the plague had this dinner party happened, and that they talked to each other, that wouldn't had changed anything: Gendo is still committed to his plan, and would had continued to proceed exactly as he did in 2.0 when Bardiel shows himself. It's sad but Gendo chose his path in life a long time ago, and it include to use his son and daughter as pawn to awake EVA-01 and "use his soul" (probably through the Key of N) to finish the job and launch his version of Instrumentality, and no amounts of dinner parties or father-son talks would had changed that.

The closest thing to a honest father-son talk they had was in the cemetery in 2.0, where Gendo actually gave Shinji a good life advice: to learn to "forget" painful things to move on, but that certain precious things should never been forgotten even if they are painful; even if he acted on its principle in a very wrong way.

And hell, that principle is exactly what Shinji will need to achieve in Q: to learn to move on from the past and forget the painful things (Rei and Kaworu's death) while still remembering the precious moments with them, so he could move on instead of being trapped in the memories of a past that doesn't exist anymore.

Hopefully we'll get some explanation for Gendo's behavior. It was nice in EoE to see that discussion between Gendo and Yui, where we learned that Gendo just acted the way he did because he didn't want to hurt Shinji, or was afraid to associate with him. It painted him as a much less hateable character, in my opinion. If Shin doesn't resolve any of this, though, he'll just be painted as a tremendous dick. I hope that doesn't happen.

BC Baron wrote:I disagree completely. IMO that's not an example of Gendo making any effort to reach out. All he did was accept an invitation from Rei, who by the way, was the one taking all the initiative to expand her horizons by teaching herself how to cook and going outside of her comfort zone by inviting others (probably for the first time ever) over to her apartment.

My interpretation of this subplot in 2.22 was that Shinji served as the inspiration for these developments in the First Child by preparing a meal and sharing it with everyone during the fieldtrip sequence at the water purification facility, not giving her any grief about being a vegetarian (unlike Asuka), and just generally paying attention to her. Apparently everybody on this forum seems to think this was just about the worst idea ever conceived plus completely unrealistic, since IRL you never see examples of anybody attempting to reciprocate someone else's kindness.

Also, "quality time with Gendo" must be the very definition of an oximoron, as only time spent as far away from him as possible could actually hold any sort of value.

My only inference in that scene was that they were both heading in the same direction towards Rei's apartment. I do not believe for one second that Gendo would've told his driver to stop to pick up Shinji. When have we ever seen the Commander go out of his way to make anything more convenient for his son? Look at all the times during the original series and movies when Shinji is heading to and from either school or NERV. He is shown walking through the streets of Tokyo III, taking the subway, or getting a lift from Misato. Even at the beginning of 2.22 they're both at the cemetery together visiting Yui's grave and Gendo leaves abruptly in his VTOL, never once offering his kid a ride out of there.

Based on comments from some of the other Rebuild threads I've seen, it would appear that a bunch of people around here believe the aborted dinner party would've been this great father-son moment, had Bardiel simply not chosen that day to introduce itself to Unit-03 in Matsushiro. However, I'm convinced that even if they went through with it and somehow, for once in his miserable life, Gendo managed not to behave like a total asshole, it still would have been WAY too little, WAY too late. As far as I'm concerned, one isolated meal (especially when Rei was the one doing all the work) and one brief instance of expressing your approval to your kid after he suffers the mental equivalent of stigmata while catching an angel out of the sky, cannot even begin to offset years of neglect.

Regardless of what your personal interpretation of the scene is, the fact is, Gendou agreed to spend time with Rei and Shinji. Regardless of the quality of that time, who said what first, who initiated, Gendou agreed to it. No matter which way you slice it, you can't ignore the fact that Gendou, in good state of mind, agreed to put aside time towards his family. I don't like Gendou very much either, but don't try and talk like a square isn't a square. And before someone comes at me with "what is a good state of mind," Gendou was sober, responsive, and unusually warm. I agree, Rei struck him as Yui for a second, but that happens to everyone. Impulse is driven that way, but we know that people are still in a good state of mind regardless.

"When has this already happened" is a bad argument. NTE isn't the same as NGE. When was Asuka almost killed in the Bardiel incident. In the original that would have been a crazy thought. In NTE Shinji fucks her up. Bad choice of an argument.

Yes, I agree. Gendou is a dick. But regardless, at some point in 2.22, he decided to spend time with his kin. That, in itself, is a healthy behavior, not an unhealthy one.

If you think that it would have been a bad father-son moment, that is your own interpretation of what events would be like. However, just because you have a feeling that things will go awry, doesn't mean they will. The event was very clearly defined and captured in the movie as a bonding moment. That is what likely would have occurred, and we need to base the "what ifs" on a common and simple conclusion before we get to the bizarre ones. Often the common conclusions are exactly what happens. When Shinji & co. went on a field trip to the pre-2I, nothing out of the ordinary happened. It was, literally, a trip to the zoo. The characters played their own roles, but there was nothing disjointed from a simple trip to the zoo.

However, let me tell you that if a what if did occur, that what if would have been far better than nothing. Know why? Because Shinji's family structure is really weird to begin with. When someone's family structure is shattered, any exposure is better than no exposure. Shinji literally has 0 male role models in his life in 2.22. He does not know what to think of Rei. Again, any structure is better than no structure at all. It is very, very unlikely that any sort of communication would break down at the dinner table and position Shinji against his father. And if that were to happen, it might be painful in the short term, but when it comes to families, any exposure is good for the long term.

unitM wrote:And before someone comes at me with "what is a good state of mind," Gendou was sober, responsive, and unusually warm.

Well, not necessarily. I'm pretty sure the scene in 2.22 does show Gendo drinking wine with his meal. Can't really say for sure how many glasses he knocked back that particular evening, but if he was slightly buzzed, it might have contributed to his vision of Yui.

"When has this already happened" is a bad argument. NTE isn't the same as NGE.

Actually my argument was more along the lines of: Look at all the times Gendo never offered Shinji a ride anywhere, despite available opportunities and vast transportational resources at his disposal. The scene in the cemetery that I referenced, took place in both continuities and in both instances Gendo did the same thing. He exited the graveyard in his NERV VTOL jumper-jet, leaving Shinji there alone to walk out by himself. This helps to establish what I would consider to be a track record of classless, inconsiderate behavior toward his son and why I believe it was very unlikely that Gendo would've stopped to give Shinji a ride in his air-conditioned limo, regardless of the fact that they were both headed toward the same destination.

Yes, I agree. Gendou is a dick. But regardless, at some point in 2.22, he decided to spend time with his kin. That, in itself, is a healthy behavior, not an unhealthy one.

I guess that might depend on what you feel his true motivations were. In his conversations with Prof. Fuyutsuki, the Commander makes it clear that he intended to cultivate a relationship between the First and Third Children for the purpose of ultimately manipulating both of them into awakening Unit-01, thereby advancing his own scenario ahead of SEELE and their plans for Instrumentality.

I believe that at least one of the reasons Gendo agreed to attend the dinner party was that he viewed it as yet another opportunity to increase his influence over the developing Rei/Shinji friendship and steer it toward whatever direction he thought would be useful to realize his goals. So, once again IMO, what we have here is an example of Rei and Shinji acting purely out of kindness, whereas Gendo demonstrates that he's willing to lower himself by actually spending time with family, just as long as he can satisfy his ulterior motives.

Now then, if we're keeping score, I would classify Shinji's thoughtfulness and generosity by preparing food and sharing it with everyone during the field trip (along with not ostracizing Rei for disliking meat) as healthy behavior. Similarly, I would characterize Rei's efforts to teach herself how to cook and attempting to interact more socially with her peers by inviting them over to her apartment as a fantastic example of healthy behavior (especially for someone who used to just sit quietly in the corner while the rest of her classmates would enjoy swimming in the pool during phys ed). However, I can only describe Gendo's poor parenting/guardianship skills and consistently manipulative behavior toward both his son and pseudo-daughter as nothing short of dysfunctional.

If you think that it would have been a bad father-son moment, that is your own interpretation of what events would be like. However, just because you have a feeling that things will go awry, doesn't mean they will. The event was very clearly defined and captured in the movie as a bonding moment.

Now who's making bad arguments? This "bonding moment" you're referring to never actually took place because Bardiel hi-jacked Unit-03 and the party was cancelled. Nevertheless, you are quite correct. I don't believe Gendo is capable of participating in a good father-son moment, or come to think of it, any good moments whatsoever.

Shinji literally has 0 male role models in his life in 2.22.

IDK, I'd probably nominate Kaji as a positive male role model, mostly because he spent a little time just talking to the kid. That being said, I think just about any other random guy he might bump into would serve as a better role model than Gendo. It might've been interesting to see a scene or two where either Hyuuga or Aoba tried to start up a conversation with him. Heck, even Fuyutsuki would probably be a more appropriate father/grandfather figure, if the guy could just get off his ass and interact with Shinji more than once every three movies or so.

BC Baron wrote:The scene in the cemetery that I referenced, took place in both continuities and in both instances Gendo did the same thing. He exited the graveyard in his NERV VTOL jumper-jet, leaving Shinji there alone to walk out by himself.

Well not exactly: Misato was waiting outside to give him a ride (at least in NTE, I don't exactly remember in NGE), since that cemetery was apparently outside the city.
But still, he could had proposed to give him a ride on the go, since both were going at the same place which for once has nothing to do with both jobs. Hell for some reason Gendo even brought Rei for a ride even thought the only appointment she had was her LCL bath session, to which she could had gone on her own!

BC Baron wrote:IDK, I'd probably nominate Kaji as a positive male role model, mostly because he spent a little time just talking to the kid.

Two little times actually: one at the Aquarium and another at the melon patch. And a little sign of approval for his learning of cooking with a little romantic advice on how it will get him all the girls!

So yeah, Kaji was definitively presented as Shinji's positive male role model, as he was back in NGE. The chat in the Aquarium was probably to compensate by the chat in the bedroom that never happened in NTE, since Shinji didn't get out of EVA-01's core in one mere month this time around.

Which by the way put his character in a very uncertain position: on one hand Kaji filed the quota of father figure bonding scenes with Shinji that he did in NGE before dying, which means that he could be dead after the timeskip, but on the other hand seeing Shinji's situation, he so badly needs a positive male role model (that doesn't try to drag him into far fetched plans for redemptions that includes fighting his former friends) that it could actually increase the chances of Kaji being alive, since I don't see anyone else in the cast fit for the job, and introducing someone new in the last movie just for the task will feel forced.

BC Baron wrote:Well, not necessarily. I'm pretty sure the scene in 2.22 does show Gendo drinking wine with his meal. Can't really say for sure how many glasses he knocked back that particular evening, but if he was slightly buzzed, it might have contributed to his vision of Yui.

Point noted, but if Gendou was a little tipsy, Anno went through no length to point it out to us. No blushy cheeks, drowsy eyes, or anything.

Actually my argument was more along the lines of: Look at all the times Gendo never offered Shinji a ride anywhere, despite available opportunities and vast transportational resources at his disposal. The scene in the cemetery that I referenced, took place in both continuities and in both instances Gendo did the same thing. He exited the graveyard in his NERV VTOL jumper-jet, leaving Shinji there alone to walk out by himself. This helps to establish what I would consider to be a track record of classless, inconsiderate behavior toward his son and why I believe it was very unlikely that Gendo would've stopped to give Shinji a ride in his air-conditioned limo, regardless of the fact that they were both headed toward the same destination.[/quote]
I'm sure it's a possibility that he wasn't on his way to pick up Shinji. Admittedly, saying he was most definitely on his way to do that is a jump to conclusions, since I don't know myself. It certainly seemed like he was heading towards Shinji, with Shinji even carrying a small gift bag, too.

I agree, Gendou is still a ridiculously selfish individual. A life of unending hazards and trials for Shinji can not be made up for by a simple meal or a thank you. However, taking that into a black-and-white "he's evil or he's not" perspective is not very realistic, simply because there were times when Gendou at least attempted to reach out. By Q he's a brick wall, sure, but we still can't disqualify his innocent expressions of family security.

BC Baron wrote:I guess that might depend on what you feel his true motivations were. In his conversations with Prof. Fuyutsuki, the Commander makes it clear that he intended to cultivate a relationship between the First and Third Children for the purpose of ultimately manipulating both of them into awakening Unit-01, thereby advancing his own scenario ahead of SEELE and their plans for Instrumentality.

I don't think what he did depends on his true motivations were, and again, regardless of the motive behind his actions, he did what he did. If I'm kicking a dead horse and my justification for doing so is "daddy told me", I'm still kicking a dead horse dude. Family time is family time. I "plan" to spend quality time with my mom, but when I do so, it's not like the entire time I'm thinking "great, this will lead me to a larger birthday present." And I don't believe there's any serious confirmation of Gendou being a psychopath.

BC Baron wrote:I believe that at least one of the reasons Gendo agreed to attend the dinner party was that he viewed it as yet another opportunity to increase his influence over the developing Rei/Shinji friendship and steer it toward whatever direction he thought would be useful to realize his goals. So, once again IMO, what we have here is an example of Rei and Shinji acting purely out of kindness, whereas Gendo demonstrates that he's willing to lower himself by actually spending time with family, just as long as he can satisfy his ulterior motives.

I believe that to. But that's about where the line is drawn: at least one of the reasons Gendo agreed to attend the dinner party was that he viewed it as yet another opportunity to increase his influence over the developing Rei/Shinji friendship and steer it toward whatever direction he thought would be useful to realize his goals. That doesn't mean that another, perhaps even more powerful, motivation was the human motivation of kinship. That doesn't mean that, even if he had an ulterior motive, suddenly the event would have no grasp over his humanity either. "One of his motivations" to "just because of this one motivation" is a measurable jump in conclusions.

BC Baron wrote:Now then, if we're keeping score, I would classify Shinji's thoughtfulness and generosity by preparing food and sharing it with everyone during the field trip (along with not ostracizing Rei for disliking meat) as healthy behavior. Similarly, I would characterize Rei's efforts to teach herself how to cook and attempting to interact more socially with her peers by inviting them over to her apartment as a fantastic example of healthy behavior (especially for someone who used to just sit quietly in the corner while the rest of her classmates would enjoy swimming in the pool during phys ed). However, I can only describe Gendo's poor parenting/guardianship skills and consistently manipulative behavior toward both his son and pseudo-daughter as nothing short of dysfunctional.

That's fine. I agree with you; Gendou's behavior in relation to his family structure is nothing short as dysfunctional. But again, that doesn't mean that he can't commit functional and healthy behaviors. The fallacy you're committing is that you're taking "he's a bad person" and using that to avoid seeing his good behaviors. Someone can be bad but still accomplish morally good things.

BC Baron wrote:Now who's making bad arguments? This "bonding moment" you're referring to never actually took place because Bardiel hi-jacked Unit-03 and the party was cancelled. Nevertheless, you are quite correct. I don't believe Gendo is capable of participating in a good father-son moment, or come to think of it, any good moments whatsoever.

I know it never took place. I'm speaking hypotheticals of course/

BC Baron wrote:IDK, I'd probably nominate Kaji as a positive male role model, mostly because he spent a little time just talking to the kid. That being said, I think just about any other random guy he might bump into would serve as a better role model than Gendo. It might've been interesting to see a scene or two where either Hyuuga or Aoba tried to start up a conversation with him. Heck, even Fuyutsuki would probably be a more appropriate father/grandfather figure, if the guy could just get off his ass and interact with Shinji more than once every three movies or so.

Shinji has positive male role models, sure, but what's more important is that he doesn't have any consistent positive male role models. Yeah, I get Kaji's there, and even Gendou at one point showed appreciation towards Shinji. But these are outlier examples, not the common ones. Shinji doesn't have a role model in his life consistently, and any contact with his pops, even bad contact, is very useful for Shinji.

unitM wrote:Shinji has positive male role models, sure, but what's more important is that he doesn't have any consistent positive male role models. Yeah, I get Kaji's there, and even Gendou at one point showed appreciation towards Shinji. But these are outlier examples, not the common ones. Shinji doesn't have a role model in his life consistently, and any contact with his pops, even bad contact, is very useful for Shinji.

I would say that he doesn't have consistent role models at all, be they positive or negative, male or female. It's a real wonder that the kid is "just" very self-centered instead of a sociopath.

This is a great discussion and I wish I could add it more beyond it made me sad when I re-watched 2.22 that the possibility (regardless of it would have came to anything) of Shinji spending time was with Gendo didn't happen, with Gendo's car spending away while Shinji stands on the sidewalk with his paper bag when he gets the call and Rei's pot boiling over. Oof.

Whether this one dinner was fix anything, I think it was set up as beginning of a rebuild (hah see what I did there) of Shinji's and Gendo's relationship but unfortunately, all that doesn't happen and what little was already smoothed over gets destroyed when Gendo uses the dummy plug to stop Asuka/Bardiel and almost kill her and Shinji stomps on the Geo-Front pyramid in a rage.


Who knows what would have happened at the dinner? It could have been civil or an argument would have broken out or maybe they would have spent the whole dinner not talking to each other at all. But! I think what did happen illustrated that dinner itself wouldn't have fixed anything in Shinji and Gendo's relationship, with using the dummy plug to take care of the rogue Angel is something almost everybody at NERV think is going too far and then flood Shinji's entry plug to asphyxiate him because he's "throwing a childish tantrum"

These two really need a family counselor

ElMariachi wrote:I would say that he doesn't have consistent role models at all, be they positive or negative, male or female. It's a real wonder that the kid is "just" very self-centered instead of a sociopath.

I understand what you're saying, but when someone simply does not have a role model, bad or good, it places him in a worse-off position. Having a role model, or someone to just talk and share experiences with, helps immensely for a child's self esteem. If you'd like to know a little about Shinji's self esteem, I direct you to the opening scene in EoE. Having a bad role model can lead a child to do bad things, but at least it will lead a child somewhere. Even if it's the wrong direction, having exposure to a leader figure will give that child power. How he uses that power can be reformed later. But having no one, good or bad, is a bad spot.

I don't think the one dinner was a fix to anything. In fact, who knows? The dinner could have led Shinji to crave for the past even more in Q, and thus be even more impulsive about his decisions. The point that I am trying to make is that it would have been a healthy event in Shinji's life, regardless of whether it was a turning point in any way. Shinji isn't very social. A pastime is structured around being social. It would have benefited him if it wasn't cut short.