The thread where it originated was too off-topic, and while this thread isn't perfectly accurate, it's close enought, i think.
Kendrix wrote:Given that situation, any "contact" of that sort would be taking advantage by
default, especially since that makes her following lines imply she only wanted a replacement boytoy after Kaji died.
It would mean something that if she thought "Let's fuck someone else to forget the grief", she must've assumed that Shinji may have been thinking similarly (after Rei died) and thus would be emotionally compromised in a way that would make it very hard for him to think clearly or say no at all, and was in fact, only halted because she and Shinji weren't quite in the same
stage of grief yet.
And that's pretty low and does not at all fit with a character that may be flawed, but does get treated by the narrative as a mostly good person we're supposed to root for.
That's crossing the event horizon, really. That act alone would make her so damn
petty... and I don't think she is.
If she really was, why not screw Hyuuga? He's perfectly willing, and has been for a long time.
Even at his lowest, Shinji didn't actually
touch Asuka when he... you know.
Hmm, i admit i'm not sure of what to think anymore. On one hand, Shinji looked pretty capable of rational assessment and decision even if he was extremely emotionally shaken. On the other hand, he did watch Rei die, and went throught other extremely mind-fucking events as well during and before Rei's death (like those little Reis growing in his hand, i don't think he was able to sleep for a long time after that). But also, regarding "she must've assumed that Shinji may have been thinking similarly" i think Misato believed that Shinji was capable of saying no if he was uncomfortable with the situation even when she was aware he must have been pretty emotionally distraught, plus at the moment, she did believe that she was also doing it for Shinji/he might have wanted it too, so i can't see as selfish/taking advantage. Certainly wrong and i would probably think different if she did go throught with it, but i can't see it as her trying to take advantage of Shinji, at least not intentionally/consciously.
I think the main thing that's creating the disagreement here is that i don't have the impression that Shinji's grief or emotional state would drive to the point of not thinking clearly or not being able to say "no", it would probably make it more difficult, but not considerably so.
That's also why i don't see it as low, probably. I mean, wrong of course, but even horizon? I'm not sure. Also, i'm not sure if the events in 23 could be compared to Shinji... well, you know... Over Asuka. Shinji doesn't use sex the same way Misato does.
Also, about Hyuga, i always viewed as something similar to Gendo just letting Shinji go in ep 4. Misato knows she can easily have Hyuga or use him for sex if she wants, but she is aware of his feelings for her and doesn't want to give him any false hope. So her not expressing any interest in her is more out of respect or concern for him than anything else. In fact i wouldn't be surprised if she did want to use him as an escort but decided not to.
Kendrix wrote:There is some sort of UST between the two, from both sides (Episode 20 makes it quite obvious at one point), but Misato's the adult there. Just playfully teasing him or having feelings she can't help is
very different from actually screwing him.
The situation in EoE is completely different because a) She was mostly trying to motivate him, it might as well have been a pragmatic decision for the sake of the planet and poor Asuka who was stuck fighting the harpies b) She knew she'd never see him again so it's understandable that she may as well be honest before she dies c) A kiss, especially if she's in a situation where she wants their very last interaction to be memorable, is different from actually taking his virginity. d) The factor that would make the episode 23 situation the most disgusting isn't present: That she would be taking advantage of him being all desperate and not really able to make clear decisions (less than usually that is) because
he just witnessed Rei's death.
Somewhat off-topic but the earliest cue of UST, at least on Shinji's side, i noticed was in Episode 7, there might have also been cues of UST on Misato's part, but aside from the joke in Episode 2, i'm not aware of them. But yeah Misato's the adult, and there is indeed a lot of difference between having those feelings and acting on them. However, i just can't see the kiss in EoE as intended to motivate Shinji. How could that work? Misato is aware to some degree Shinji sees her as a sort of mother, so i can't imagine how Misato could think that promise of sex/intimacy with her is something he would even want. However, b) and c) are certainly good points. So is d), but like i said i don't view that exactly the same way.
Kendrix wrote:Wasn't that pretty much the case since he failed to bring himself to console her in episode 21? They hardly talk after that (and it already gets lampshading at the beginning of ep 23 before that happens "So, Misato-san apparently wants to be alone again...")
He couldn't deal with that, I guess it is very overburdening for a child to find the person they're supposed to come to for support in no shape to give them any and to suddenly feel that
they have to fix it, that breaks their naive view of how the world is supposed to work.
It's what often breaks kids that have drunkyard parents, or when their parents divorce and let the kid play intermediary and/or comfort blanket.
I wouldn't be so sure of that, if anything, i had the impression that after 21, things were simply more tense or grim due to the escalating situations (the angel, the problems of the descent arc, personal anguishes, the state of humanity, etc.) Rather than the relationship between Misato and Shinji being awkward/crumbled. Plus during most of 22, things were tense either because of Asuka or the angel situation, so i don't know if what happened in 21 had a hand in how things went between them after 23. At the beggining of 23, i assumed that was more a reference to Misato being more focused on her search for the truth, and thus can't be avaiable for Shinji as a company/comfort/whatever. And combining it with Shinji's comment in Asuka's door, it seems to be a commentary in how Shinji is running out of people he can seek shelter in general rather than how things crumbled with Misato in particular.
Kendrix wrote:Because he's Shinji. It's neither the first nor the last time that he had a very strong reaction to minimal touch. He was raised by a professional who got paid for it, and it would've been highly improper for that teacher to touch him in any way, as opposed to, say, random relatives or adoptive parents. Gendo probably meant well in choosing someone whose actual job was to handle children, but the end result was, simply put, Shinji not getting a single hug in his life up to episode 16. Add to that the entire "afraid of contact with people" complex, the fact that he was generally unsure as how to handle Misato after episode 21 and keep in mind that seeing a close friend/possible love interest he was very protective of die before his very eyes probably didn't put him a very open/receptive state, least of all after well, the last few episodes, each of which came with at least one significant loss for him.
I'd go with Misato's assertion in the following scene that he's just plain afraid of any sort contact, regardless of, or probably even because of his need for some consolation.
It's true that Shinji isn't exactly comfortable with touch or intimacy, but the way he reacted was just so... Strong/knee-jerk, almost unlike him, plus he sounded a bit terrified, it would be different if i ever saw him reacting as bad in another situation, but that's the only time he reacted with such intensity to another's touch. All the other surrounding factors (Rei's death, things going downhill since the descent arc, etc.) Might have caused for him to react as strongly, but for some reason something doesn't match up for me in that interpretation. But i do find Misato's assertion that he just didn't want any contact at the moment accurate.
DuncanR wrote:An interesting thought experiment would be to switch their genders: imagine that Misato is an adult male, and that Shinji is a preadolescence girl. Other than these two changes, the characters are otherwise identical in every way. Most people are
much more likely to assume that some sort of sexual abuse is taking place.
It's a bias with some basis in reality: If an adult man takes advantage of a young girl, the immediate thought is "he's abusing her". But if an attractive adult woman takes advantage of a young boy, people will be somewhat more likely to think "that lucky kid" when, in reality, the situations are identical.
Edit: It doesn't help that Misato's character is practically built around the idea that she never really grew up. She might see herself on the same level as Shinji: a sentiment I doubt he shares.
Heh, don't get me wrong, i don't think Shinji was lucky in the slightless for an older woman propositioning him, it's just that since i don't feel Shinji's mental state is as compromised, i can't see it as Misato trying to advantage of him, since i felt he could voice consent or non-consent. But it is indeed a very real basis, which is a shame. However, i'm not sure if, at least in that scene and the aspects of sexuality, she views herself in the same level as Shinji. Whatever her flaws, she is aware she's suppossed to be taking care of him and does a... Not too terrible job at it.
"Every line is a joy" -Kaworu Nagisa.
"Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm." - Ralph Waldo Emerson.