It's important not to confuse what Chuckman thinks the movie is saying with what Chuckman himself actually thinks.

(Yeah he just said as much himself but I repeat it in case of TL;DR.)

Fuck it, no caveats; I love you, Chuckman, your posts are greatness.

And I you, my man.

It's good to see you breaking out the analysis, Chuckman.

Just to add my two cents to the pot, I personally don't think that the Mandarin is a stereotypical Asian character. Reading the comic books never gave me that impression. Sure, we can trade blows over the facial hair and karate, but I don't believe that it would have been wrong or racist to give the part to an Eastasian actor.

However, this is not to say that I agree with Ray's massive post on the issue. I don't think that the Mandarin is an archetype any more than I think Titanium Man was an archetype. (And Ray, while I'm at it, you're pretty silent on the fact that Black Widow is a Russian character. Just sayin'.) The story does not suffer from having Kingsley play the Mandarin.

I also agree with another point that Chuckman makes: counting non-whites in a film does not solve whitewashing, nor does it make a case for it. Judging a movie by the amount of white actors and actresses is still racism, nothing more.

Chuckman wrote:I did not say that capitalism is evil. I said the film says that total lassiez fair equality of opportunity capitalism is destructive and corrosive to culture and a society with broader equality of circumstance

So wait, are you saying that Tony helping out the kid, was the coda of him having learned his lesson with Super villain Mcgeek? Not just, him being appreciative to the kid, or sympathetic because he saw himself in him, or a suggestion by the film that those better off should help those " little people" that helped get them where they are? Or just a par-the-course consequence of karma?

I'd thought I'd made that clear in my discourses on my personal relationship with Anno's belief system.

Where's that at, if I could ask?

Shit, I need to see Iron Man 3.

It's better than IM2 but worse than IM1. However, it's still definitely worth a watch for the cool factor (and the climax is superb.)

Ray wrote:As that video I posted said, Mandarin is not a stereotype. He is an ARCHETYPE. Characters like the Mandarin have been around in Asian and Western literature for Millenia, since before the time of Christ even.

Hardly an archetype. Being an archetype would imply he was the origin of all subsequent supervillians who happened to be Asian. However, he first appeared in 1964, and the appearance of the 'evil Asian Fu Manchu' can be traced much earlier to the first half of the 21st Century. Hell, the idea of evil Manchurians can be said to date back to the 1800s when the British were dealing with the decidedly backwards and incompetent Manchu-dominated Qing dynasty, whose cultural dress, insistence on the kowtow for diplomatic relations and the queues (long ponytails, not the other kind of queue) they forced their subordiantes to wear can often be found in early depictions of evil Asians (ie: Fu Manchu). The Mandarin could be said to have been partially born out of the Cold War-era fear of Communist China as well as the old stereotypes lingering around from the aforementioned Qing dynasty. Early depictions of the Mandarin are very similar to the stereotypical slit-eyed beared Fu Manchu image (or Ming the Merciless), further emphasising his status as an Asian stereotype.

Furthermore, the Mandarin is definitely not 'a corrupt Royal Advisor, Noble, or Politician who wishes to overthrow the current ruler and attain power and influence for reasons known only to him.' The Mandarin's origin story schtick was that he was influenced by his father, who was part of the pre-Communist regime, and decided to take his name from the old advisors to the Manchurian Qing dynasty, rather than actually ever serving as an 'advisor' himself. He also is quite open about his desire to seek world domination as a supposed descendant of Genghis Khan (possibly reflecting Confucian ideals regarding the importance of ancestry). In terms of backstory, at least, he doesn't seem comparable to the other villians you have cited.

As for the prevalence of this character elsewhere, 'Asian culture and Cinema' didn't really include many Mandarian figures prior to the conception of the character himself in 1964. Outside of mythology, Chinese literature wasn't exceptionally broad prior to the downfall of the Qing and even then the country spent a great deal of time in turmoil due to the warlord era of 1916-1928 and Chang Kai-Shek's rule from 1927-1947, during which no notable texts featuring characters akin to 'the Mandarin' emerged on account of the fact that in 1916 they hadn't even figured out what the national written language should be (all written communication up til then was knowledge held exclusively by the ruling classes and those who bothered to sit through examinations to learn to read all the obscure texts, thereby keeping the majority of the population illiterate). After Chang Kai-Shek's downfall in 1947, of course, most literature was aimed at praising the Communist Party and slandering the western imperialists. I don't think the crawling masses even had any 'Cinema' to speak of until Deng Xiaoping came to power. As for 'before the birth of Christ', most texts of that era were religious or mythological, so once again we can discard the idea of wide characterisation during that era.

History rant aside, I'd have to conclude by saying that the Mandarin's status as a stereotype cannot be overlooked, even in modern times. The character really doesn't seem to have much depth in his backstory outside of being Asian, evil and keen on world domination. Even far into modern times he perpetuates a beard and long hair, and some kind of period costume. His IM3 incarnation continues this trend with a spoof of his comic costume, a topknot and a beard. The character himself also seems to have been relegated to mostly a background threat recently; far from the memetic fame of Lex Luthor, Doctor Doom or Gendo. Even his codename- a relic of a bygone age- serves to mark him as a symbol of old-age negative views of China.

Shinoyami65 wrote:He also is quite open about his desire to seek world domination as a supposed descendant of Chinggis Khan (possibly reflecting Confucian ideals regarding the importance of ancestry).

FTFY.

I haven't read many comics featuring the Mandarin, but his depiction in Matt Fraction's recent run on The Invincible Iron Man seemed to include this fear of the economic power of China. You have Tony Stark, ultra-capitalist, being forced to obey the Mandarin's due to some mental control crap. He's forced to design WMDs or something for the Mandarin so that he can take over the world. This calls back to the origin of Iron Man as seen in his comic and cinematic debuts.

I forget the exact details, but it ends with Tony's enemy-turned-ally Zeke Stane killing the Mandarin, while Tony protests. I guess this is a negative depiction of the growing strength that China has a superpower. It prevents itself from being completely Anti-China, I guess, by the inclusion of Chinese superhero teams Triumph Division and The Dynasty as supporting roles alongside Tony against the Mandarin. Plus, his appearance has been greatly altered from the past (to something kind of boring, but whatever). I think this is the best way to portray the True Mandarin if he shows up in the MCU. Is that even likely, given the fact that the studios probably won't include anything that might prevent the movie from being released in China?

The second version looks like straight out of a D&D rolebook!

It should be noted that the Mandarin would not have an equivalent anywhere in Asian cinema (outside of those productions influenced by Hong Kong/British cinema), due to the fact that the Mandarin is rooted in the Yellow Peril realm of fiction: distinctly British and American (well...Western in general).

ElMariachi wrote:The second version looks like straight out of a D&D rolebook!

I'll be honest, the second drawing reminds me of Sinestro from that awful Reynolds Green Lantern movie.