Does anyone else think Final isnt really the Final

The fate of SPOILERS is also the joy of speculation.
Readers enter at their own risk.

Moderators: New Moderators, Board Staff

Nuclear Lunchbox
Agent Ahegao
Agent Ahegao
User avatar
Age: 21
Posts: 10212
Joined: Dec 13, 2012
Location: 可塑の椅子

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:25 pm

Something just came to mind. Remember that flashback in 2.22 where Kaji talks about why Misato has the attitude that she does? Perhaps a flashback like that would be useful. (Like that as in the amount of time taken, not necessarily in that style.)

FreakyFilmFan4ever
(In)Sufficient Director
(In)Sufficient Director
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 7842
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Location: Playing amongst the stars
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:28 pm

That flashback uses an art style that seems exclusive so far to Shinji’s method of internalizing things that are very personal, such as his realization of having to save the world in Jo, Misato’s backstory in Ha, and his relationship with Kaworu in Q. I doubt a flashback like that would be used unless something deeply personal occurred during that specific event that changes how Shinji sees the people around him. (Which, that might be the case as well. It would certainly make things more interesting to watch.)

MrSniper1401
Embryo
User avatar
Age: 23
Posts: 33
Joined: Jul 09, 2014
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby MrSniper1401 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:29 pm

Mostly I just want clarification on how Third Impact occured and why Shinji is blamed for it, because Kaworu's infodump in 3.0 doesn't add up with what is seen in 2.0. I don't really need to see how Misato or Asuka's characters developed in the timeskip.
The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth.

Nuclear Lunchbox
Agent Ahegao
Agent Ahegao
User avatar
Age: 21
Posts: 10212
Joined: Dec 13, 2012
Location: 可塑の椅子

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:31 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:That flashback uses an art style that seems exclusive so far to Shinji’s method of internalizing things that are very personal

I disagree. That implies that Kaji was able to tell Shinji things from a third-person perspective of the incident, like when the black sphere rises into the air. I think it's actually showing us what really happened.

Gendo'sPapa
God
God
User avatar
Posts: 4562
Joined: Oct 24, 2006
Location: Everywhere
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Gendo'sPapa » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:38 pm

It would be visually stunning yes. But what's the story?

This movie series has never stopped everything to have a 10 minute flashback showing how the sea went from blue to blood red. In 20 years since NGE first aired, Anno & Co have never had a lengthy intircate flashback showing how awesome & visually stunning an event Second Impact itself was. There have been snippets yes, but almost always pertaining to a character. The most we got was Episode 21 in NGE & 95% of that material was dedicated to how Fuyutsuki met & became colleauges with Gendo or some character we'd only heard mentioned in pasing - Ritsuko's mother - died. We never got the grand exciting moment of the South Pole exploding.

And yet I rarely if never see people clamouring for a Prequel spin-off.

I don't see why anything in the gap will be any different. There's nothing to show. If this was a different franchise, one that didn't aim to be so emotionally stark I'd say epic LOTR style flashbacks would make sense but that's not Eva. There's a lot more power they could get out of a few obscure glimpses of the past & a close up on Misato pouring her heart out then they could with 10 minute narrated prologues.

Hell, if anything from the past needs to be shown in detail I still say it should be when Yui got sucked into Evangelion Unit 01. Shinji was there & saw it happen & presumably at some point in teh final movie he'll get back in that Eva unit. THAT'S something from the past that would play a pertinent role in the movie & the protagonists story .

Certainly more than some flashback of how Misato & Co stole an Eva Unit or what not to become Wille.

* As other people pointed out - if the flashback needs to be covered it should be covered in how Kaji explained Second Impact to Shinji in 2.0. A dialogue scene with quick, obscure glimpses of an event we don't need to see in detail to get the horror of it.
Hell, I've been saying since 3.0 was released that we'll probably see Kaji in 4.0 & he'd provide us with an infodump on what happened in the missing 14 years. It would work as a mirror of his sequence at the water plant with Shinji in 2.0 & Kaji is the only adult who has EVER talked straight with Shinji.

Nuclear Lunchbox
Agent Ahegao
Agent Ahegao
User avatar
Age: 21
Posts: 10212
Joined: Dec 13, 2012
Location: 可塑の椅子

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:44 pm

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:In 20 years since NGE first aired, Anno & Co have never had a lengthy intircate flashback showing how awesome & visually stunning an event Second Impact itself was...We never got the grand exciting moment of the South Pole exploding.

As a matter of fact, they did-- during the TV show itself. We have a flashback in the very beginning as we watch Misato's father carry her into the capsule, and then second impact from her point of view; we have footage from one of the DC episodes; we even have episode 21, where pretty much the entire thing was one giant prequel from Fuyutsuki's POV.

MrSniper1401
Embryo
User avatar
Age: 23
Posts: 33
Joined: Jul 09, 2014
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby MrSniper1401 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:44 pm

That's why I've said the prologue could be done in such a way that gives us explanation on certain questions we have from 3.0 while also setting up something important for the plot of Final. My thinking behind this is that the last 2 movies have both had prologues that were largely action and heavy with flashy visuals. So it's not out of the realm of possibility that Anno would also start Final with a similar style of prologue.
The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth.

Gendo'sPapa
God
God
User avatar
Posts: 4562
Joined: Oct 24, 2006
Location: Everywhere
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Gendo'sPapa » Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:17 pm

^
^
Ugh. People & semantics on this damn forum. You're seeing flashes of Second Impact. Snapshots. What you're not seeing is what people on here want to see from the missing 14 years - which is a grand, sweeping, intricate beat by beat narrative of what went down.
In the show you see some dust flying in the wind, a girl put in a pod, a flash of light, then some giant wings when she's MILES away. A snapshot of the event.

Blergh.

Nuclear Lunchbox
Agent Ahegao
Agent Ahegao
User avatar
Age: 21
Posts: 10212
Joined: Dec 13, 2012
Location: 可塑の椅子

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:19 pm

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:What you're not seeing is what people on here want to see from the missing 14 years - which is a grand, sweeping, intricate beat by beat narrative of what went down.

Which is a pretty grand generalization of the forum regulars, I might add.

Gendo'sPapa
God
God
User avatar
Posts: 4562
Joined: Oct 24, 2006
Location: Everywhere
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Gendo'sPapa » Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:19 pm

Not of the 5 or so who post in every forum how the 4th movie needs that to work. I might add.

Anywho, it's incredibly off topic. Someone should do some surgery on this thread.

ElMariachi
Le Posteur Verbeux
Le Posteur Verbeux
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 6854
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
Location: France
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ElMariachi » Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:17 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:EDIT: I agree with TM. It can very well be that Shinji discovers these things in such a way that fits perfectly into the movie’s future-orented narrative, rather than segmenting a designated allotment for screen time on things that arbitrarily dwell in the past.

I agree too, whatever will eventually be shown about the missing 14 years, it will be connected to Shinji's POV, instead of being disconnected from the narrative.
In short, if it happens, we'll discover part or all of what happened 14 years ago at the same time as Shinji, the movies are too much centered around his POV to be able to do the same thing than episode 21, a flash-back episode for the audience's sake only, because unlike then where the info wasn't relevant to Shinji's story (it wouldn't had helped him knowing that his father shagged Ritsuko's mom or that Fuyutsuki and Gendo weren't exactly best buddies at the beginning), some of the events in the missing 14 years are directly relevant to Shinji's story, namely all the clusterfuck with the 12th Angel and Lilith.
And maybe also what made Misato shift her character like that, if it was the chock of seeing an Impact for the second time in her life that traumatized her to the point of making her try to become detached emotionally, or if it was a gradual process due to the long and grueling war against SEELE with no ending on sight, or maybe a combination of both, so Shinji could understand her better, like he did in 2.0 when Kaji explained to him that she was at 2I's Ground Zero, which could be a first step in a reconciliation.

A possible way to show that in FINAL could be to have the first scene being the 12th Angel attack and whatever happened with Lilith, then at the end of the sequence either having it revealed that it's Asuka who's narrating the events to Shinji around a campfire during their desert trip (that would mean that Shinji got out of his funk thought), or maybe later in the movie as Shinji see some footage of the incident, maybe from Mark.06's internal camera or from some VTOL that was around and maybe others POV, all the sequence would play like that, as if it was a documentary, that would be original. And maybe later have Kaji telling to Shinji how it personally affected Misato for a second flash-back sequence, very short this time, of the same length than the one in 2.0.


A movie/TV series/manga spin-off would be really pertinent only if the rest of the time skip is covered: Asuka waking up and coming to grips with what happened, her meeting Mari, their very probable distrust and antagonism growing little by little into a mutual trust and finally friendship, Kaji continuing his spy work and uncovering Gendo and SEELE's shenanigans, the split between neo-NERV and WILLE, WILLE's first years that were probably very difficult, only Misato's charisma and conviction keeping it from falling apart, the acquirement/construction of the Wunder, how Gendo and SEELE set aside their differences to work together (in appearance), what Kaworu was up to, the missing Evas...
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

Nuclear Lunchbox
Agent Ahegao
Agent Ahegao
User avatar
Age: 21
Posts: 10212
Joined: Dec 13, 2012
Location: 可塑の椅子

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:38 am

There's always a possibility that FINAL won't be as Shinji-centric as Q was. It's been the first true piece of Shinji-centric material, only cutting away to other characters when they're in Shinji's general vicinity. It'd be nice to return to a storytelling style where we actually get to see what other characters are doing. That would make flashbacks much easier.

Bagheera
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 18626
Joined: Oct 15, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bagheera » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:14 am

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:There's so much character development that took place with the other characters during those fourteen years that I don't believe Anno wouldn't make something because he thought that there was no story to tell.


Or he just looks at Suimame's work and says "oh good, that's dealt with then" and proceeds on his merry way.

Re: Timeskip: the only really relevant part is Third Impact proper. We need to know what happened there so we can figure out where Shinji goes from here, since that's directly relevant to him figuring out what he did wrong (if anything) and what he should do now. Wille's split from Nerv would need like five minutes, tops. Asuka and Mari, Kaji and the new Wille staff, the bridge bunnies and Ritsuko, these would all be handled in passing. A montage would be more than enough here, but if you wanted to do it well you could give it maybe twenty minutes to a half hour. You really don't need more, particularly if you're Anno.

That leaves an hour or so for Shinji to unfuck himself, which should be more than enough -- that's about what he got in Q, after all, and that was frankly too much.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

FreakyFilmFan4ever
(In)Sufficient Director
(In)Sufficient Director
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 7842
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Location: Playing amongst the stars
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:33 am

All of the most noticeably different character developments occurred with the side cast that weren’t even that focused upon in the rest of NTE, such as Ritsuko’s new hair cut and Maya’s new personality. (Are the stories behind these changes somehow intertwined? And more importantly, who cares?)

Again, Asuka simply reverted to the rough girl she was back in the beginning of Ha with a bit more signs of her world view having matured and being more grounded, and Misato is still wondering as to what to do with Shinji like she was in Jo.

If anything, the questions as to why they’re so harsh to Shinji have a lot to do with the lines Ritsuko said about Nerv making Shinji their top priority over Unit 01. It seems as though they knew about this prior to fixing Shinji with the DSS Choker, as if they didn’t suspect this that A ) wouldn’t have put the collar on Shinji in the first place, and B ) they wouldn’t have made Unit 01 a part of the goddamn engine for their AAA Wunder. It would be stupidity multiplied upon itself to take something they knew Nerv would extract such a vital part of their ship’s operational capacities. And since they went ahead and made Unit 01 such a vital part of their ship, they probably already had a very good idea as to who Nerv would really take if given the chance, and how to destroy that person if push came to shove, before installing Eva Unit 01 into the AAA Wunder.

None of that is 14 years worth of character development. Heck, it’s not even character development since no real decisions are being made by the characters that are fleshing them out and making them grow. Misato really doesn’t develop as a character until she’s faced with the decision of whether or not to destroy Shinji. Prior to that, the only thing she changed was her alliance, which is probably because she learned the secrets of Nerv and became aware of their involvement with Seele (Asuka mentions Seele during the climax, and I highly doubt that Seele isn’t shared information among the Willie personnel), and all that conceivably takes is Kaji finally getting to the truth and somehow spilling the beans to her. Beyond that, her demeanor and her resolve during battle haven’t changed that much since Ha.

Nuclear Lunchbox
Agent Ahegao
Agent Ahegao
User avatar
Age: 21
Posts: 10212
Joined: Dec 13, 2012
Location: 可塑の椅子

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:35 am

The biggest difference is their attitude towards Shinji, so that's the biggest thing to explain. You're right; perhaps there isn't that much "character development" per se, but there's still a huge difference in how they treat the character of the show (regardless of how they're thinking about them.)

ElMariachi
Le Posteur Verbeux
Le Posteur Verbeux
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 6854
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
Location: France
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ElMariachi » Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:44 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:If anything, the questions as to why they’re so harsh to Shinji have a lot to do with the lines Ritsuko said about Nerv making Shinji their top priority over Unit 01. It seems as though they knew about this prior to fixing Shinji with the DSS Choker, as if they didn’t suspect this that A ) wouldn’t have put the collar on Shinji in the first place, and B ) they wouldn’t have made Unit 01 a part of the goddamn engine for their AAA Wunder. It would be stupidity multiplied upon itself to take something they knew Nerv would extract such a vital part of their ship’s operational capacities. And since they went ahead and made Unit 01 such a vital part of their ship, they probably already had a very good idea as to who Nerv would really take if given the chance, and how to destroy that person if push came to shove, before installing Eva Unit 01 into the AAA Wunder.

I got the impression that WILLE didn't had any idea that neo-NERV would target Shinji, but instead would try to take away the already awakened Evangelion to launch the HIP, during both of neo-NERV attacks, Misato only talked about protecting EVA-01 being the absolute priority, not a word spared about Shinji.

We don't exactly know why they put a DSS Choker on him, they say that it's a symbol of his punishment, but a freaking bomb seems rather extreme symbol, maybe it actually because they weren't really sure that he was Shinji and not some angelic horror with his appearance ready to go all Alien at first opportunity, and since the artwork drawn by Yamashita was revealed a few days ago, there's also the theory that it's actually a standard protocol for every Eva pilot (although then one wonders why they didn't told him so instead of all that drama about symbols of punishment and mistrust)

Finally, as for why they used EVA-01 to power the Wunder in the first place, they simply didn't had any other choice: they needed something to make their big ship fly and be able to directly attack neo-NERV's fortress and end the war, and Unit 01 was the only thing available.


View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:None of that is 14 years worth of character development. Heck, it’s not even character development since no real decisions are being made by the characters that are fleshing them out and making them grow. Misato really doesn’t develop as a character until she’s faced with the decision of whether or not to destroy Shinji. Prior to that, the only thing she changed was her alliance, which is probably because she learned the secrets of Nerv and became aware of their involvement with Seele (Asuka mentions Seele during the climax, and I highly doubt that Seele isn’t shared information among the Willie personnel), and all that conceivably takes is Kaji finally getting to the truth and somehow spilling the beans to her. Beyond that, her demeanor and her resolve during battle haven’t changed that much since Ha.

She has gone from someone trying her best to avoid casualties as much as possible to having "objective takes priority over human life" as a motto, that's a freaking big change!
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
Posts: 23040
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Lost in Bat Country
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:36 am

This thread seems to have wandered from "will there be more Eva after Final?" to "will/can Final tell the fans everything they want to know?".

We'll be told what the staff want us to know, in precisely the way they want us to know it. I hope for and expect the usual Eva methodology, scattering clues throughout dialogue and visuals and leaving it up to us to put everything together. There will be plenty to work with. Remember, we're not just getting a whole new movie worth of stuff; we're getting the conclusion, which will establish how we view the series as a whole. Calm down, focus on your other hobbies, and wait for it. :p

View Original PostChaddyManPrime wrote:I know this is silly but maybe the reason they call it One More Final in EoE is because Final happened before it? Perhaps One More Final is the epilogue no matter what the continuity/timeline/reality.

Dreadfully common misconception, actually.

View Original PostReichu wrote:"One More Final: I Need You" is actually the alternative title of "Dai 26 Wa: Magokoro o, kimi ni" [Episode 26': Yours Sincerely]. While placing the title card before the final scene was clearly a deliberate decision (one not made until after the storyboard phase, I should note), this was probably for reasons of thematic resonance. I'm aware the phrase "One More Final" sounds like it implies an epilogue, but it's actually a bit of Engrish referring to the fact that 26' is 'another final [episode]'. (Based on the translation we got, my best guess is that the original form was 今ひとつの最終話.)

Dataprime
Donor
Donor
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 2507
Joined: Oct 23, 2013
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Dataprime » Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:09 pm

I really don't want to see Shinji go thru anymore pain and suffering.
Just end it all right here.

I genuinely love how good Evangelion hurts
- Suicidahlia

She's so cute. Like crazy cute. Like "She's giving me the diabetus" cute. - Gendo'sPapa

Sgt. Griff
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 20
Posts: 1376
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
Location: Kiwiland
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sgt. Griff » Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:10 am

:resurrect:

Although I really want 3.0+1.0 to be the final one, so Anno can move on, and Khara can do something new and exciting, I really feel like there needs to be more for this to wrap up, or at least for 3.0+1.0 to be an ungodly long film, which given the title doesn't seem completely impossible.
I'm writing music or studying law. It's all very unclear at this point.

The Cruel
Shamshel
Shamshel
User avatar
Age: 24
Posts: 256
Joined: Feb 19, 2014
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby The Cruel » Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:24 am

If 3.0 was actually supossed to be released together with the fourth film (Double Feature) and the story having the structure of traditional Japanese theatre (Jo-Ha-Kyu) then 3.0+1.0 I'll complete the Kyu act and also finish the whole story of Rebuld, if the nature of the alternate title logo, : || is like this.

I allways felt, that 3.0/Kyu was just the beginning of something really big. And jeah Evangelion should just end.
I carry out things right to the end. No. Matter. What.


Return to “Evangelion Final [SPOILERS]”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest