Issues With Runtime: How Long Does Final NEED to be?

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Ray
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Postby Ray » Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:01 pm

@PWhodges and Freaky
Subverted Expectations

Here is what I believe was a good parallel to my experience with Q:

Imagine you see a trailer for an upcoming summer popcorn flick like Iron Man, that you are looking forward to. You have no reason to believe that you'll get anything but Iron Man.

So you buy your ticket. You go in to see the movie, looking forward to being treated to the movie you saw in the trailer. But instead of the flick you saw in the trailer, you got Pink Floyd's the Wall. A

Is it still a good film? On an objective level yes. But I didn't want the Wall I wanted Iron Man.

I paid money for Iron Man, and I expected to see Iron Man, not a tale of depression, hopelessness and meaningless loss! I thought Anno wasn't depressed and upset with his fans anymore! So why pull the rug out from under us, again?

= = = =
Everything else is up for whatever Anno wants to do with it, up to and including the film’s release date and duration. If it’s a 90 minute film that comes out in the year 2017, then so be it. What are you going to do about it? Not watch it?


I'm sticking with Shinji until the inevitable end.

When you follow these characters, be it Shinji in Eva, Aang in Avatar: The Last Airbender, or Frodo in Lord Of The Rings. You make an emotional investment in their journey, and you expect said investment to have some sort of payoff. You expect Aang to beat the Firelord, you expect Frodo to succeed in throwing the Ring into mount doom, and you expect Shinji to find at least some happiness after all the pointless loss he's been put through by both his own actions and others.

I'll still go see Final. But I won't expect to ever get said emotional payoff without a long (or at least longer than average) Runtime. Not one that doesn't come off as dishonest and emotionally hollow at least.[/quote]
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:51 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:you expect Shinji to find at least some happiness after all the pointless loss he's been put through
We had that in the TV series, but were people happy with that?
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Postby xanderkh » Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:03 pm

And even then Ray, Anno isn't a pushover when it comes to movie exposition, he KNOWS what he's doing. Yes, Q was a huge Shocker and left a lot of us yearning for more and wishing things could've gone better, but THAT'S what real life is like when we've all done things we're not proud off that inadvertently hurt other people, whether intentionally or unintentionally. But you know what? Dwelling on it over and over will only make it worse, and Anno isn't the kind of person to go that route. You need to keep your head above the water and keep trying to move on from it however you can, cause eventually those nasty feelings will go away in time, and Shinji's predicament is no different. It will take time, yes, but ANYTHING worth having in life doesn't come easy, and Shinji will find some form of hope in the end.

So Anno will give Final the length of what it NEEDS to be, not what you WANT it to be.
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
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Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
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Postby Ray » Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:09 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:So Anno will give Final the length of what it NEEDS to be, not what you WANT it to be.


On THAT we can universally agree.
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
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Postby xanderkh » Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:16 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:On THAT we can universally agree.


And remember when you first saw EoE? I can stand with you that we've all hated it from the start, but eventually, you've learned to appreciate it of what it was trying to say. Final will do the same, and you'll probably learn to like it too. :)

So just relax Ray, and wait for Final to come. Cause like Shinji, YOU have to have hope too. Don't give up before you've even started. ^_^
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:33 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:Yes. we. do.


No. we. don't. Be mindful of the difference between what you want and what is needed to tell the story that needs to be told. They are not the same thing.

We already got EOE. With the bare minimum answered through exposition, and we all know how that little nightmare ended for Shinji and humanity. Is Anno really going to put us through that kind of pointless loss again?


Pointless loss my ass. That was a win on all fronts.

My expectations have nothing to do with this, my anxiety does.


Neither your anxiety nor your expectations are Anno's problem. Anno's telling a story, and that is his primary concern. How it affects you is up to you, not him.

Well I do. Harshness, and borderline cruelty were all I got out of them.


Then, frankly, you weren't paying attention. Once you jettison your baggage and view their scenes with unbiased eyes their position is very easy to understand. It is not difficult to develop them as good people, because they've already established themselves as good people. They are trying to save the world, after all, and they've given Shinji far more than he deserves given his past actions.

In both cases I hope I'm wrong. But without a long Runtime, is there a way to avoid either outcome?


There is no reason to think runtime has anything to do with it. As others have mentioned the relevant material can be covered in under a minute; past that, you are vexing yourself by constructing a narrative of what "must happen" in your head and worrying about whether or not Final will deliver what you want. But that is not its job, nor what is needed for the story to proceed. It is simply your anxiety taking form. You should recognize that and calm. the fuck. down.
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:42 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:Cause like Shinji, YOU have to have hope too. Don't give up before you've even started. ^_^

That's a nice anecdote to think about the series with, Xander. Nice one. :asuka_thumbsup:

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:19 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:But I won't expect to ever get said emotional payoff without a long (or at least longer than average) Runtime. Not one that doesn't come off as dishonest and emotionally hollow at least.

All you're doing in that sentence is judging it without seeing it.
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Postby Ray » Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:34 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:All you're doing in that sentence is judging it without seeing it.


I could never judge the movie, only fear for it.
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

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Postby xanderkh » Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:57 pm

^

Then let me ask you a question Ray. Now, let me just say that this is PURELY hypothetical question, and I don't honestly think that Anno would make the movie in this direction:

Let's say, for the sake of this argument, FINAL turns into the movie you DON'T want it to be, at least in your eyes. What happens then?

From what I could tell, it may seem like you'd get depressed and dejected by such an outcome. But even then Ray, it would probably only last a couple of days for you, because we need to realize one thing: It's only a movie.

I think a problem that a lot of us are facing with Eva (present company admittingly included) is that we're treating Eva more than it should be. And why wouldn't we be? Eva for a lot of us hits an accord with us because a lot of us have had experience with similar circumstances with the characters. We heavily identify with Shinji and Asuka as characters because we were once like them, and still are.

Because of this, we've become emotionally invested in their plights, failures, and successes.....though perhaps too invested. It's almost like an Online Player of an MMORPG who begins to replace his real life with the virtual one, which isn't healthy.

I think a lot of us are getting too emotionally invested into these movies, that we go to such extraordinary lengths to defend them, or that we get too emotionally involved in their failures, that we begin to "feel" their pain as well. But why should we go to such lengths to defend a FICTIONAL character? Yes, he's very 3-dimensional, but he's still a fictional character.

Do we go to such lengths to defend such a character, because we're afraid deep down, we're just like him, that we'd make the same decisions as Shinji in his position, and thus suffer the same consequences?

The thing is people, Shinji ISN'T REAL, and neither are the circumstances of Eva. Evangelion isn't some social Bible about human interaction and social skills. Yes, it offers good points about growing up, accepting circumstances beyond your control, and accepting the responsibilities of your own mistakes and failures. But again, it's not a Bible nor something written in stone to say you HAVE to act this way in certain circumstances. It's only ONE point of view. Like an aesop fable that you read as a kid in order to get an "idea" on how to act in certain situations, but not every single moment of your life.

Sometimes, the needs of the many do outweigh the needs of the few, and sometimes they don't. It all depends on the circumstances and your own personal views. And Eva is just another story to help guide you to discover WHO you are, not an instruction booklet telling you to ACT THIS WAY, NO EXCEPTIONS.

This is why Anno has been critical of fans who get TOO invested in the exploits of Eva, that they cease to be individuals of their own identity, and just become a nameless extension of Eva.

What you need to do Ray when watching these movies, is take it for what they are, see if they apply to your own viewpoints and ideals, and then MOVE ON and see something else in the world. Hell, you can even REJECT Eva if it doesn't agree with you. Eva isn't you. You're you. You decide whether the lessons of Eva should apply to you. They aren't for everyone, and that's okay. :)

So, you're free to enjoy or reject the exploits of Shinji for whatever happens in Final. Just don't let it CONSUME your every being so that way you don't go into a spiral of depression when it doesn't fit your views.

If you want to enjoy Eva, you need to be prepared to accept the consequences of a choice, but don't let it overwhelm you that you cease to be you. :)
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Postby Ray » Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:50 pm

Regardless of the ending, I'm planning on going on a looooooong sabbatical from all things Eva-Related after Final.
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

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Postby Sorrow » Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:29 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:Regardless of the ending, I'm planning on going on a looooooong sabbatical from all things Eva-Related after Final.

Though, presumably you would have much to complain about; so it would be wise to have a break now so you're refreshed for vast amounts of typing when Final gets here.
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:06 am

View Original PostRay wrote:Regardless of the ending, I'm planning on going on a looooooong sabbatical from all things Eva-Related after Final.

Sounds like the exact opposite of what I'll be doing. After Q hit, I was posting around 30 times a day. -o-;


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