Post-EoE Yui: Memorial, or Mother? [split]

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:24 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Perhaps Anno didn't recognize this at the time, I dunno. But it makes Yui's behavior in EoE utterly bizarre when taken at face value, since people generally don't just up and leave their children like that based on simple idealism.

It is a feature of this community that every effort is made to try to interpret the Evaverse as a perfect and consistent thing. It can save a lot of agonising if sometimes one drops the pretence and simply says - Hey, Anno just got it wrong!
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Postby Atropos » Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:29 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Perhaps Anno didn't recognize this at the time, I dunno. But it makes Yui's behavior in EoE utterly bizarre when taken at face value, since people generally don't just up and leave their children like that based on simple idealism.

And you're basing this on what, exactly? Not everyone is blessed with loving parents. Hell, we know Shinji isn't.

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Postby Sorrow » Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:46 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:More plausible as a motivation? Definitely,
I quite disagree. How many people go to war, or commit suicide, for an idealism. Leaving their families behind. It doesn't mean that they don't love them - they may be convinced they're doing it for them, even.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:But once children and such enter the mix a person's priorities shift, drastically.
That seems like an absurd idealisation of other people to me. People with such a sense of purpose are not changed or weighed down by children. Not everyone is "perfect" enough to consider their children, or their family at all, as more important than their selves or their purpose in life and "magically" see a whole new perspective because they've had them. It's not pathological detachment - it's having determination and not being weighted down; she clearly still cares for them.

It's not less plausible, or logical. To you perhaps, but it makes Yui a stronger, more determined and separate character. It seems to be uncomfortable for people, and that is why they're trying to see otherwise. You want to believe that no one would give their lives for such a cause, because you personally view it as pointless. It's not pointless or illogical - to some people it makes perfect sense.

It doesn't mean I can't see it from an other view, and understand it--such as your own and Rei IV's--but why are you all incapable of seeing this as possible for Yui, who was never more attached to her son or husband than her sense of purpose in the first place?

I think her cause is noble. Especially if the human instrumentality was her parting gift.

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:It can save a lot of agonising if sometimes one drops the pretence and simply says - Hey, Anno just got it wrong!
Anno didn't get this wrong - it's characteristic of Yui to up and depart for her sense of purpose. No "normal" person would have willing shut themselves away in the Eva. Shutting herself away in space for a sense of purpose, on behalf of humankind and not just herself, is very much in character.
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Postby pwhodges » Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:53 am

View Original PostAtropos wrote:Not everyone is blessed with loving parents. Hell, we know Shinji isn't.

Sure they aren't - but Yui is presented as being a loving parent right up to the point of the contact experiment, when she effectively abandons him, while spouting stuff about how she wants him to understand one day. This is a big change in a parent's attitude to a still young child, and I see it as pretty bizarre. She then shows some protectiveness (the hand, berserk, chats in metaphysical space), but very inconsistently, and not always in a way he can understand, or even be aware of as coming from her. No, it's hard to see Yui as a worked out and rounded character, and in many ways easier to see her as unfinished business on the fringe of the story.
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Postby Monk Ed » Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:40 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:It is a feature of this community that every effort is made to try to interpret the Evaverse as a perfect and consistent thing. It can save a lot of agonising if sometimes one drops the pretence and simply says - Hey, Anno just got it wrong!

...Which is why I best like the interpretation that she got it wrong and will eventually (hopefully sooner than later) see the error of her ways. :heehee: The Eva story repeats a pattern of subverting itself later; I can think of Yui's decision as the thing that gets subverted in the sequel in my mind.
Last edited by Monk Ed on Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sorrow » Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:41 am

I won't argue for or against Yui being fully fleshed out - I can see how someone may see that. But I don't see a great contradiction; she loves her son, she cares about him and wants to see the boy happy. However, she's not distracted by that love for her even greater sense of purpose. Perhaps she loves her fellow man more? In her eyes it's self sacrifice. He's made it so far without a human mother, she knows it's not like he needs her of all people - but she feels humanity needs an eternal monument.
She's missing out so no one else has to, and her son can hopefully live a more fulfilling life, free of obligations of saving the world from Angels and shady organisations out to "purge" humanity, from there on out.

Is it really so strange?

I got confused and I killed my sister... egh I can't help the way that I feel....
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:44 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Sure they aren't - but Yui is presented as being a loving parent right up to the point of the contact experiment, when she effectively abandons him, while spouting stuff about how she wants him to understand one day. This is a big change in a parent's attitude to a still young child, and I see it as pretty bizarre. She then shows some protectiveness (the hand, berserk, chats in metaphysical space), but very inconsistently, and not always in a way he can understand, or even be aware of as coming from her. No, it's hard to see Yui as a worked out and rounded character, and in many ways easier to see her as unfinished business on the fringe of the story.


Complete agreement here. It's the inconsistency in her portrayal that's the real issue IMO.

View Original PostSorrow wrote:Is it really so strange?


Given that we're telling you as much isn't it obvious we think it so?

I got confused and I killed my sister... egh I can't help the way that I feel....


You . . . wait, what?
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Postby Monk Ed » Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:48 am

View Original PostSorrow wrote:Is it really so strange?

It's a lot less strange to me when it's considered that Yui might not have had much in the way of other choices. Before I even heard the "Yui as new Seed hypothesis", back when I just took the ending at face value, I naturally figured that Yui had to leave anyway, for all kinds of reasons. Like, that she wouldn't be able to leave the Eva even if she wanted to at that point, and she wouldn't have been able to just hang around because of the effect her mere presence would have on the resurgent humanity, and so her only choices were to kill herself or go on living (away from Earth) as an Eva. In light of a choice like that, her decision feels more appropriate.

I got confused and I killed my sister... egh I can't help the way that I feel....

...What?
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Postby Sorrow » Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:49 am

I'm questioning whether it's really so strange, because really, it's not.

There isn't an inconsistency or contradiction; it just doesn't align with what you feel about people.
You can love people and still abandon them in pursuit of something else. It may seem unlikely, but it's perfectly natural.

She got confused and she destroyed the Earth... egh she can't help the way that she feels...
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Postby Reichu » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:39 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:It is a feature of this community that every effort is made to try to interpret the Evaverse as a perfect and consistent thing. It can save a lot of agonising if sometimes one drops the pretence and simply says - Hey, Anno just got it wrong!

That the work will be imperfect and inconsistent is something I just assume by default; belaboring it again and again over the years gets tiresome. In general, though, we'll never know exactly what the staff "got wrong" (it seems to be a matter of opinion, often times...). For me, a lot of this discussion is just for fun (if I'm not having fun, I tend to leave), to play in the sandbox of ambiguities and share ideas so we can all arrive at and refine our personalized interpretations.

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Postby Sorrow » Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:59 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:For me, a lot of this discussion is just for fun (if I'm not having fun, I tend to leave), to play in the sandbox of ambiguities and share ideas so we can all arrive at and refine our personalized interpretations.
This. Well, maybe not fun, but passing some of the monotony, at least.

I'm quite convinced that her becoming a seed is a logical choice for "head-canon", as they say, because if you play with it enough then it does become plausible. I'm not out to convince it's the right or wrong thing to believe; but I'm afraid I don't think anyone can say her wishing to become an "eternal monument" isn't plausible, logical or is pointless. It's just as likely as this seed theory, and is a lot more readily apparent. The resistance seems to be met with people feeling uncomfortable in Yui's view on this - but if they don't believe me now, that it is indeed a decision a human may make, will they ever believe me?
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Postby Reichu » Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:10 pm

View Original PostSorrow wrote:This. Well, maybe not fun, but passing some of the monotony, at least.

If not fun, then at least distracting, yes.

At the rest: It's quite rare (in my experience, at least) to find someone who, as you do, finds Yui's choice logical and relatable. People who dislike Yui (a huge percentage, it seems) will simply interpret her end game as additional proof that she is insane/evil/megalomaniacal/etc. and leave it at that. Of those who actually like her and/or want to make sense of her motivations, it can be quite difficult to accept that this woman who is the central maternal figure of the show and struggles so fiercely for the preservation of individual human life would up and resign herself to an eternity of existing alone in a vacuum. Even if it resonates with you personally, I honestly feel that it comes out of left field at the very end and doesn't really connect with anything that came before, leading to the train of thought, "Is this really all there is to it?"

I'm inclined to agree with pwhodges that Anno screwed up here. In a previous EoE draft (the one partially translated on the wiki), it's clear that he was dabbling with the concept of what Yui hoped to achieve with Eva a bit more, since it got a mention in Misato's expositional speech to Shinji. But even there, the ideas are half-baked and don't seem to have anything to do with what we've been told about Evas until this point. "Evas were made to fight Angels. NO! Evas were really made to trigger Instrumentality. NO!! The really real purpose of Eva is to survive in space forever!" Uhhh... sure. :uhh: Anno had to sense to edit that weirdness out of Misato's speech, but it's still there in Yui's bit at the end, without anything whatsoever to anchor it.

Well, there is a point at which a writer or artist just has to say "Good enough!" and declare something finished, and maybe that's what happened. :p

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Postby Bagheera » Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:16 pm

Reichu: I think my take on the matter, which is itself a product of your speculation on the issue, is enough to resolve things. I realize committing wholeheartedly to any one particular take on things is anathema to us, but even so . . .
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I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Postby ThanatosII » Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:22 pm

To be quite honest, before EGF, I always viewed Yui in a good light. I simply thought she was being admirable and selfless to be the arc of existence for mankind. I never put much thought into that aspect though, as I was more satisfied Shinji feeling some degree of closure for his mother after their little dialogue and her explanation of how anyone can come back.
It never really occurred to me she was insane. Simply thought Yui served her purpose, as a parent, and that she wished for Shinji to be the legacy of an Ikari to carry the torch of the family. In other words, in order for Shinji to grow up, he had to let go of dependency on his mother and carry on.

To some degree, I do cling onto that interpretation, but I totally see the other side too.
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:39 pm

I went from liking Yui to thinking she was evil, and then back to an equilibrium of the two where I have made my peace with her decision. Yui's certainly one hell of a character.

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Postby Rei IV » Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:59 pm

Yui's certainly one hell of a character.

Especially for somebody who isn't a main character and doesn't receive that much development! But yeah, when I look back, my stance was "Yui is an evil a bitch". Now I can appreciate her omniscience. I can thank Reichu's "analysis" of Yui and the importance of her role as Shogouki/God in the narrative for that.

I still say something about her is unhinged though....
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Postby Sorrow » Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:23 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:People who dislike Yui (a huge percentage, it seems) will simply interpret her end game as additional proof that she is insane/evil/megalomaniacal/etc. and leave it at that. Of those who actually like her and/or want to make sense of her motivations, it can be quite difficult to accept that this woman who is the central maternal figure of the show and struggles so fiercely for the preservation of individual human life would up and resign herself to an eternity of existing alone in a vacuum.
I don't particularly like Yui enough to go out of my way to find a reason to justify her becoming an eternal monument. For me, it's an innate understanding, I suppose. I'm so fucked up...

I just can't really see how it's such an issue to people. I've explained how it isn't an indicator of not loving her son, or anyone else. I've explained how it isn't about other life being aware of her; and that if survival is the aim of life, then Yui has accomplished that on behalf of humankind, and herself. These things are true. The only thing I could imagine it to be is that people find these things uncomfortable, or unsettling, to imagine being true of someone - especially if they want to like her but see this as negative. I'm afraid it cannot be said that these things would be illogical, or implausible, of Yui. If you don't like it, then fine; you all seem to have found a reasonable answer that fits better for you. If it were Anno's intent though, then it certainly is logical and plausible for his Yui, and it can be for a real person.

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View Original PostRaichu wrote:Well, there is a point at which a writer or artist just has to say "Good enough!" and declare something finished, and maybe that's what happened. :p
I'll give you all your theory of Yui being a seed now. I think it works, it can be slotted in quite neatly and it obviously makes you like the ending a little more; but I don't think we can say Anno wasn't content with the ending or that it was just shoved in because he had nothing better. Even if it is just the best he could come up with, he still felt it worthy of being in the end product.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Reichu: I think my take on the matter, which is itself a product of your speculation on the issue, is enough to resolve things.
If you're speaking for those of you who view Yui as a seed, then it may sum up that line of thinking nicely. If your "resolve things" comment was speaking collectively, for everyone who has seen Evangelion, then I disagree.

View Original PostThird Reichu wrote:struggles so fiercely for the preservation of individual human life would up and resign herself to an eternity of existing alone in a vacuum.
Forgot this bit. Though, I think you all know why I picked it out.
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Postby Reichu » Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:43 pm

View Original PostSorrow wrote:but I don't think we can say Anno wasn't content with the ending or that it was just shoved in because he had nothing better. Even if it is just the best he could come up with, he still felt it worthy of being in the end product.

All I meant was that the "goodbye Mother" scene feels like an artifact of an aborted thought process. From the available draft (which includes a form of Yui and Fuyu's conversation very similar or identical to the final one), we see Anno making at least some effort to forecast the scene and fit it into the flow of things:

Misato: "They intend to cause Third Impact, using the Eva Series, and return all humanity to nothingness."
Misato: "Fifteen years ago, people, including your mother, reduced the scale of Second Impact by making Adam undergo degradation."
Misato: "Shinji-kun... what's made you fight up until now?"
Shinji is silent.
Misato: "The Angels. Enigmatic, non-communicative entities. The 18th Angel remaining in the end is mankind. The Angel called Lilin, born from Lilith, who is like Adam.[7]"
Misato: "Angels and Man are fundamentally the same thing. Angels are merely another possible humanity: humans that cast aside human form."
Misato: "People cannot live without the mothers of life -- the Sun, Earth, and Moon. But an Angel that isn't dependent on them would be a new form of life, capable of surviving the harshest conditions.
Misato: "Eva was its model."

Misato: "People will probably perish, any which way. But right this moment, we can't just sit back and let humanity get annihilated."
Misato: "Okay? Destroy the entire Eva Series. Preventing Third Impact is the only way everyone can stay alive."

...even though it comes off as a non sequitur here, as well, IMO.

There are things that just popped out of the woodworks in EoE and left the audience doubtless wondering, "Where on earth did THAT come from?", but by and large such issues were addressed with the revised episodes 21' to 24'. The revisions to 21', however, even with the ever-important front end of that Yui/Fuyu conversation, still do not forecast "space monument Eva" in any way. We get some illumination upon the ideological clash between Seele and Yui/Fuyu/Gendo and context for Yui's upcoming experiment, but it's not really clear how their discussion wanders from their anti-Seele directive to THE TRUE PURPOSE OF HUMANITY IS TO CREATE EVA WHICH WILL PRESERVE HUMANITY'S MEMORY FOREVER!!!. Maybe I'm just missing something really obvious.

Forgot this bit. Though, I think you all know why I picked it out.

I think I might not. :p (Also, I don't think anyone has ever done the "Third Reichu" joke TO me before, but I have definitely anticipated it.)

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Reichu: I think my take on the matter, which is itself a product of your speculation on the issue, is enough to resolve things. I realize committing wholeheartedly to any one particular take on things is anathema to us, but even so . . .

While I can relate to the urge to promote huge posts that a lot of effort went into, I learned some time ago that there can be no true resolutions in NGE discussion, and any one point of view is impotent. Furthermore, just because I inspired something, it doesn't mean I'll endorse it in full. :devil: In fact, there are times when I can't even endorse myself.

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Postby Sorrow » Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:06 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:All I meant was that the "goodbye Mother" scene feels like an artifact of an aborted thought process.
Or perhaps Anno had decided to use this part later because he liked it so much. It's hard to use Anno's thought or creating process as part of your argument to assume he didn't portray something how he intended, or he ran out of ideas and just rehashed something unused from before - there are far too many uncertainties. Not because he's "Anno", but because we're not.

View Original PostReichu wrote:The revisions to 21', however, even with the ever-important front end of that Yui/Fuyu conversation, still do not forecast "space monument Eva" in any way. We get some illumination upon the ideological clash between Seele and Yui/Fuyu/Gendo and context for Yui's upcoming experiment, but it's not really clear how their discussion wanders from their anti-Seele directive to THE TRUE PURPOSE OF HUMANITY IS TO CREATE EVA WHICH WILL PRESERVE HUMANITY'S MEMORY FOREVER!!!.
Even if the revisions were to shed light on things in EoE, we can't ignore the fact it must have also been intended to be for those who will eventually be new to the series. The intent would have still been to leave some surprise for the end, even if it was revised after the initial fan base had already seen it.

View Original PostReichu wrote:Maybe I'm just missing something really obvious.
That's how I feel when I look at men and women.

View Original PostReichu wrote:I think I might not. :p
I picked it out because you address that she "struggles so fiercely for the preservation of individual human life". Preservation of life has always been on her mind, and, being driven as she is, takes it to an extreme. We all know she doesn't do things in [s]goose[/s] half steps.

View Original PostReichu wrote:(Also, I don't think anyone has ever done the "Third Reichu" joke TO me before, but I have definitely anticipated it.)
Even after all this time? It just seemed so obvious.
Last edited by Sorrow on Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ThanatosII » Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:10 pm

I like how Reichu's avatar accurately reflects the topic. An insane Yui without the context of FAR.
"Understanding each other one hundred percent is impossible.
Of course, that's why we spend so much time trying to understand ourselves and others.
That's what makes life so interesting."
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"I got confused and I killed my sister... egh I can't help the way that I feel...." - Sorrow
Once you're regularly active on EGF, you get an idea of who is using the "Hidden" feature. Irony, eh?


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