Ghosts of Evangelion

Bagheera · Postby **Bagheera** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:46 am

This might be better suited for a discussion topic, but until recently I hadn't grasped the core of Misato's trauma, that being the fact that she had been saved by a father she despised. I mean, that's obvious -- it's stated outright both in the show and the new movies -- but the conflict there is intensely interesting. I had thought she had conflicted feelings for her father, that she was motivated by revenge, but I don't think that's the case -- instead I think she's motivated by duty, and resents feeling this need to destroy the Angels on her father's behalf. Kaji's line about survivors brings this into sharp relief.

So the question here is, what does this mean when it comes to her relationship with the Children? I look at previous chapters and I'm forced to wonder: is she tending to them out of obligation? Does she resent them? What I've written so far depicts maternal love and fierce devotion, but is that true to the character? I have a very different take on Misato now, one less virtuous and more human, and I find it very compelling. But I wonder if it jibes with what I've written about her so far. Perhaps I need to revisit earlier chapters? Or maybe I'm just being fussy, I dunno.

And what does this mean for her relationship with Kaji? There's a hint of this in my previous post, but how do they explore that going forward? What does it mean? Something for future chapters, to be sure. Looks like Misato/Kaji will be getting more attention than I expected! -o-;

ThanatosII · Postby **ThanatosII** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:38 am

Bagheera wrote:I had thought she had conflicted feelings for her father, that she was motivated by revenge, but I don't think that's the case -- instead I think she's motivated by duty, and resents feeling this need to destroy the Angels on her father's behalf. Kaji's line about survivors brings this into sharp relief.

I still think she was motivated by having vengeance against Angels rather than 'forced' duty that Shinji dealt with. Misato admits she is selfish because she was using the pilots to help her vengeance, and even Ritsuko pointed this out to her as well.

So the question here is, what does this mean when it comes to her relationship with the Children? I look at previous chapters and I'm forced to wonder: is she tending to them out of obligation? Does she resent them?

I beg to differ. Misato is conflicted with three things:
1) Lack of closure about her father (I believe this is her resentment). She thought she could dismiss her father as a shitty one, but ever since he sacrificed himself for her, that has caused her guilt for thinking her father didn't value her or her family.
2) A desire to see Angels destroyed. Angels are what took her father away; they took away a chance for to reconnect with her father for the better.
3) She wants to be a good guardian but her desire to have Angels destroyed comes at a price of using children. One part is selfish, the other is stricken with heavy guilt to have to use innocent children to fulfil her agenda. However, I never got the sense she resented them. No, she truly loved them. Misato was VERY passionate about them, hell, it caused Ritsuko a couple of slaps to the face for acting deadpan about the safety of the pilots' lives.

What I've written so far depicts maternal love and fierce devotion, but is that true to the character? I have a very different take on Misato now, one less virtuous and more human, and I find it very compelling. But I wonder if it jibes with what I've written about her so far. Perhaps I need to revisit earlier chapters? Or maybe I'm just being fussy, I dunno.

No no, I believe you're approaching Misato VERY well! Post 3I Misato no longer has to worry about Angels anymore. Now she can really do her best to be a guardian she wanted to be; one that won't abandon Shinji/Asuka simply because of her work like her father did. For Misato to carry some resentment (which I don't think she had in the first place) against the children would be very over the top. If anything, perhaps she still carries sincere guilt for using Shinji and Asuka pre-3I. I believe if you wanted to explore an untouched area of psychological misunderstanding, it would be Misato trying to repay her debt for supporting the trauma those pilots went through. No, I wouldn't think this "repay debt" thing is a "forced duty" thing, but more along the lines of a mother-like figure trying everything she can to see her 'children' grow up for the better, and that is worth a lot more to Misato.

And what does this mean for her relationship with Kaji? There's a hint of this in my previous post, but how do they explore that going forward? What does it mean? Something for future chapters, to be sure. Looks like Misato/Kaji will be getting more attention than I expected!

It's a bit of a tricky area. Pre-3I, Misato clinged to Kaji because of how she saw her father in him and desired that father figure all those years after 2I. So in some ways, I question why still be with Kaji if it reminds her of her father, but on the other hand, I think Misato would be progressing to not let her father's past hold her back to reconnect with Kaji. Misato definitely doesn't want to be alone, and Kaji is the only one that understands her, so to some degree, coming back together via a relationship seems logical.

KingXanaduu · Postby **KingXanaduu** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:01 pm

^^

Exactly! While duty has been a big part of it, Misato has been primarily motivated by vengeance against the angels because they took away her chance at reconciliation with her father, whom she felt conflicted about knowing that he sacrificed himself for her.

And you're on the right track so far Bags with Misato being VERY maternal towards her children. Remember, she risked and sacrificed her LIFE to save Shinji in EoE, when all he wanted to do was die. If she resented the children, would she have bothered out of sheer duty?

I think what's happening Bags is that you may be letting the Misato of Rebuild Q, who's far more cold, distant, and bound by duty, to overlap with the mother-figure that was more developed in the NGE series.
Those two are distinctly different characters, and even then, Misato of Rebuild still has feelings for him, which I have no doubt will come to light in Final, but this is NGE Misato, who's been more of a mother to Shinji than ANYONE, and I don't think those feelings should be taken away.

You're on the right track dude.

Literary Eagle · Postby **Literary Eagle** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:17 pm

Bagheera wrote:So the question here is, what does this mean when it comes to her relationship with the Children? I look at previous chapters and I'm forced to wonder: is she tending to them out of obligation? Does she resent them? What I've written so far depicts maternal love and fierce devotion, but is that true to the character?

Hmm... no, I don't think she resents them. Look at the way Misato cried over Shinji after the Leliel incident (episode 16), or when she cried while clutching Shinji's empty plugsuit in episode 20. Those don't seem like the reactions of someone looking after a kid just because she has to. In fact, she didn't even have to... Shinji was originally supposed to be living by himself, but Misato came up with the idea of having him move in with her instead. I agree with ThanatosII and xanderkh: your maternal portrayal of Misato is working really well.

Anyway, I enjoyed the new scenes, and I can't wait to see where the Fuyutsuki stuff is headed. Keep up the good work!

KingXanaduu · Postby **KingXanaduu** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:58 pm

Thanks LE. :)

And Bags, a quick question? What about her being resentful would make her more "human"? If that was the case, it would make her look less sympathetic to the audience when dealing with the Children that were assigned to her.

Misato is already very "human" in that she's made mistakes. She wasn't there for Shinji when he was awashed in despair for killing Kaworu, and her misplace idea of comforting Shinji only pushed him away, which shows that she's flawed and fallible.

Even in the last episodes, Misato admits that she's selfish sometimes, like she wants to be inhibitioned when living her life, but what would that accomplish other than pushing people away and only have a short-term sense of happiness? And, she realizes that, because that's what she WANTS, but not what she NEEDS. And in my opinion at least, being the best kick-ass mom/guardian to Shinji and Asuka has brought out the best traits in her as a compassionate and motherly human being.

She's defiantly a "World's best Mom" mug this Mother's day. :lol:

Bagheera · Postby **Bagheera** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:03 pm

Xander: Rewatch episode twelve. I'm not mixing continuities here, Misato herself brings this up. She obviously has some affection for the kids (particularly Shinji), but after 3I, with her duty to her father discharged, I wonder if the guilt associated with carrying out that task isn't guiding her more than anything else. It's the same as how I wonder if Shinji isn't devoted to Asuka out of a sense of guilt and pity, and whether Asuka doesn't stay with Shinji because he's the best she can manage, given her baggage.

But of course, there are two things to consider here: first, emotions are complex, and, second, they change over time. So while things may have started out that way they certainly didn't remain so, and feelings of genuine love and affection are there on all sides. So it's just a matter of acknowledging this complexity and ensuring the darker bits don't get left behind and forgotten, because they are legitimate parts of the characters.

On that note, this one's been an earworm for awhile, so I had to exorcise it. Fuyu material next!

SPOILER: Show

March 18, 2022
Asuka entered the apartment, shutting the door behind her. She dropped her purse on a kitchen chair and headed toward the sound of the television in the living room.
Shinji looked up as she entered. "Hey, 'Suka," he said. "How was Misato?"
Asuka took off her shirt, dropping it on the floor. "She's fine," she said. She frowned. "She's 'concerned' about us, though," she said, "since we aren't having sex."
Shinji looked at her oddly. "How does she know we aren't having sex?"
Asuka shrugged. "Because I told her," she said, as though it were the most natural thing in the world. She dropped her shorts by her shirt, leaving her clad in panties and a camisole. She walked over to Shinji, who opened his legs to make space for her between them.
Shinji wrapped his arms around her, but his confusion remained. "Why would you do that?" he asked, wrapping his arms around her.
She leaned into him, watching the TV. "What are you talking about?" she asked, a touch of impatience in her voice. "It's sex, girls talk about that stuff."
"I . . . " Shinji opened his hands for a moment, at a loss. Then he gave up and went back to holding her. "Okay, sure, whatever," he said. "So what did you say?"
"I gave her the pool speech," she said absently.
Shinji quirked an eyebrow. "'The pool speech'?" he asked.
"Yeah, from Okinawa," she replied. "You know, in the onsen."
"Ah." He smiled. "That was one of my finer days," he said, satisfaction in his voice.
She laughed. "Yeah, it was," she admitted. "And that was part of what confused her: you managed to get me in the sack that day, so why not anytime since? She's convinced there's something wrong."
Shinji frowned. "I don't think there's anything wrong." He glanced at her. "Is there?"
She shook her head. "Not as far as I'm concerned. We're fucked up. We have issues. It takes a lot to get us in the right spot mentally to do it, and we can't manage that on a regular basis. I'm good with saving it for special occasions."
"Heh. Yeah, that's a good way to put it." He frowned, stroking her arm absently. He chuckled. "It's funny," he said. "Before Third Impact I used to have a healthy sex drive. I didn't know what to do with it, mind, but it was there." He leaned back. "But now . . . I dunno. I'm happy just not being alone." He gave her a gentle squeeze. "At least, so long as you're the one keeping me company."
"Nice save," she said, leaning into him. "And yeah, I told her all of that. And she just frowned, and fretted, and was concerned."
"She should just be happy we aren't institutionalized or something," Shinji mused. "After all we've been through, it's a miracle we're in as good shape as we are."
"I know, right?" Asuka agreed. "I told her she should let Kaji distract her or something, but she wouldn't hear of it."
"Why?" he asked.
"Guilt," she replied with a shrug. "If 'her kids' aren't having fun, she'd feel bad indulging herself."
Shinji made a face. "That's stupid," he said.
She laughed, then turned her head and kissed him. "You're stealing my lines, dummy."
"Well, it is stupid," he said with a huff.
"Sure it is," she agreed. "But I guess it shows how much she cares about us."
"I guess," he said.
"Kaji was funny," she said. "I could tell the guy was frustrated, but he didn't know how to get through to her."
"Heh. I guess they're just as messed up as we are, in their own ways," he said.
She nodded. "I think we might be better off at this point," she said. "We at least know what we want from each other, and are content with what we get. I think they're still working that out."
He kissed the top of her head. "I'll take it," he said, tightening his hold on her.

Postby **NemZ** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:25 pm

I basically agree with everything ThanatosII said.

SEELE · Postby **SEELE** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:39 pm

ThanatosII wrote:[...]I think Misato would be progressing to not let her father's past hold her back to reconnect with Kaji. Misato definitely doesn't want to be alone, and Kaji is the only one that understands her, so to some degree, coming back together via a relationship seems logical.

I don't get it. I might be just plain stupid. Let me recap it: Throughout the relationship of NGE (both Misato and Kaji grieved for each other several years) it is the only possible reason for Kaji to come back? - to specify it a little bit - Kaji recognize his relationship with Misato and "imagined" himself in this manner - so that he could become a human shape again - much like Shinji but in a more intimate way with Misato. Sorry but i don't get myself at this. :lol:

2dumb2get?

I basically agree with everything ThanatosII said.

No no, I believe you're approaching Misato VERY well!

Me three. And at this point: Nice work so far Bags.
But still i'm smelling Mishota Katsuragi

Thanks in advance for explaining this to me - i still dont get the "Rule of resuscitation" in Eva at all.

Bagheera · Postby **Bagheera** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:44 pm

NemZ wrote:I basically agree with everything ThanatosII said.

I basically do as well. It's just that looking at ep 12 again puts a very different spin on things. If what she says there is true (and I think it is), her father really was rather selfish and useless, and confused matters by doing one decent thing at the end of his life. And now Misato has to balance (legitimate) hatred and disdain for the guy against the one monumental act, and make sense of it all. And, further, she has duty (in the form of filial devotion) to deal with, which is a big deal in Japan, as well as vengeance, both on her father's behalf and on her own, since the Angels ensured she could never properly address the conflict within her. So what did she say to him in Instrumentality, I wonder? And what would she say if she met him again?

For the Children, 'resentment' was the wrong word to use. I should have talked about guilt instead, since I think that's a much more relevant factor (though with Asuka it could be both; she never loved the girl, not like she did Shinji, and Asuka knew it. After, though; well, who knows? Feelings change, particularly when you know someone suffered because of your negligence). Guilt prompts you to make amends, but when you start to really understand them affection and even love can take root in the meantime. And that's what I believe happened here.

Seele: People come back because they have a reason to come back. Shinji and Asuka because they want to live, Misato because she wants to take care of "her" kids, Kaji because he wants to make peace with Misato, Fuyutsuki because he wants to speak on Gendo's and Yui's behalf, Kyoko because she wants to recognize her daughter, etc.

SEELE · Postby **SEELE** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:53 pm

Bagheera wrote:Kyoko because she wants to recognize her daughter, etc.

Wa-wah wait! What? Did i misread? Or did i skipped a chapter?

KingXanaduu · Postby **KingXanaduu** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:07 pm

^

Ah. Apologizes, perhaps I misread what exactly you were trying to point out. -o-;

And I agree that such feelings of guilt and desire to amend can blossom into better things.

In regards to your new chapters, I'm excited in regards to what Fuyu would want to talk about to Shinji. Perhaps more into Yui's ideals and motivations, as well as his in regards to the Children's welfare? I look forward to it.

And for the most recent chapter, it is SO WAFFY that it's up there with Pengel's works. :lol:

And it's good to see that Shinji and Asuka have finally reached the point where they feel comfortable in eachother's touch and embrace. Kind of reminds me of an art piece from Suimame where Asuka drags Shinji from his homework into her lap with her legs. ^_^

Great work as always Bags. Great WAFFY work.

ThanatosII · Postby **ThanatosII** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:46 pm

SEELE wrote:I don't get it. I might be just plain stupid. Let me recap it: Throughout the relationship of NGE (both Misato and Kaji grieved for each other several years) it is the only possible reason for Kaji to come back? - to specify it a little bit - Kaji recognize his relationship with Misato and "imagined" himself in this manner - so that he could become a human shape again - much like Shinji but in a more intimate way with Misato. Sorry but i don't get myself at this. 2dumb2get?

Episode 21 speaks for itself I believe:
Kaji: "If I ever get to see you again, I'll say the words I wasn't able to say eight years ago.”

Literary Eagle · Postby **Literary Eagle** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:21 pm

Aww, that new scene is so sweet! The way Shinji and Asuka kept touching each other so naturally made it clear that they've been like this for a while, and they're comfortable with it. Really, really nice to see that they've made that kind of progress. :heart:

Great stuff, Bagheera! I hope things will eventually improve for Misato and Kaji as well!

Bagheera · Postby **Bagheera** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 4:35 pm

I have no idea as to whether or not this is sufficient. Does it explain Kaworu? Rei? Yui? I don't know. If you ever had an opinion, now is the time to express it!

NemZ: This is a callback, but I like to think I've made it my own. I hope it doesn't bother you too much! -o-;

SPOILER: Show

April 23, 2022
Shinji didn't recognize the guards who greeted him at the Fuyutsuki residence. They were U.N. soldiers, not Herz, and they were foreigners. They were neither pleasant nor rude with him; they simply checked his pass and let him enter.
The residence was large, but not opulent. Fuyutsuki greeted him at the entrance. "Third Child," he said. "Thank you for coming."
Shinji bowed to him.
Fuyutsuki smiled graciously. "Do you play Shogi?" the elder man asked.
Shinji gave him a confused look. "Well, I only know the rules," he said.
"Good enough," Fuyutsuki said. "Let's have a game." He led Shinji into his living room. "I'll start without my rook, bishop, and gold generals," he went on, sitting down on one side of the gameboard and removing the designated pieces.
They played, Shinji making a rather poor showing for himself. "Calm your mind," Fuyutsuki said. "It's critical to winning a battle."
Shinji's brows knit. "I don't fight anymore," he said. "My battle now is to live, nothing more."
Fuyutsuki glanced up at him, surprised, then smiled sadly. "Yes, I suppose that's true," he said. He sighed. "Thank you for accompanying an old man with his hobby," he said. He made a move. "You see," he went on, "I'm rather timid, too. I needed this excuse to get a chance to talk to you."
Shinji stared at him. "To talk to me?" he asked, wariness in his eyes.
Fuyutsuki nodded. "Do you remember your mother?" he asked.
Shinji tensed. "No," he replied. "I was very young." He gave the man a rueful smile. "And father destroyed all her belongings, as though he was trying to erase all trace of her from the world."
Fuyutsuki smiled. "That is not altogether inaccurate," he said. He produced a picture, one of Shinji's mother holding him as a baby. His father was in it as well; The elder Ikari looked happy, if somewhat uncomfortable.
Shinji looked at the photo. The woman looked very familiar. "Mother?" he said. He smiled slightly. "I guess it's obvious," he said. She looks just like Ayanami."
Fuyutsuki nodded. "Correct," he said. "She was the daughter of one of the founders of Seele, a very powerful woman. Your father's name was Rokubungi before he married her." He smiled, remembering. "She was my student at the university." He stared at Shinji, a hawklike gaze. "You knew your father during Instrumentality," he said. "Do you remember what happened to Yui?"
Shinji nodded, shifting uncomfortably. "She died during the Contact Experiment with Unit 01," he said.
Fuyutsuki frowned at Shinji's discomfort, but elected to continue. "And what do you remember of Rei Ayanami?" he asked.
"Ayanami?" Shinji asked. He frowned. "I think . . . after the Contact Experiment failed, Father tried to restore Mother," he said. "But it didn't work. Instead he got Ayanami, somehow." He shrugged. "Or he made her from mother's remains." He shook his head. "I don't know the details."
Fuyutsuki nodded. "That's correct," he said. "But do you understand why the effort to recover your mother failed?"
"I . . . " Shinji blinked. "No, I don't," he admitted.
Fuyutsuki nodded again. "I thought as much. This is what Ikari -- Gendo Ikari," he clarified, "your father, should have explained to you."
Shinji frowned. "What is there to explain?" he asked, puzzled. "The procedure didn't work. Isn't that the end of it?"
Fuyutsuki shook his head. "No," he denied. "Not at all." He looked at Shinji, his expression grave. "The recovery process failed because she didn't want to return."
Shinji froze, his mouth open slightly in shock. He shook himself. "That doesn't make sense," he whispered. "Why wouldn't she want to come back?"
Fuyutsuki smiled at him sadly. "Your mother entered the Evangelion of her own free will," he said. He closed his eyes, remembering. "The Contact Experiment wasn't a failure," he said. "It went exactly as she planned. Gendo didn't understand this, and he wanted to retrieve her. But his plans and hers did not align."
Shinji's eyes widened. "Her plans," he said. "What plans? What was she after?" There was a touch of panic in his voice.
Fuyutsuki smiled sympathetically. "Your mother was a brave woman," he said. "But to understand why, it helps to know something of the beings who created us."
Shinji stopped, taken aback. "The beings who . . . ?" he trailed off.
Fuyutsuki nodded. "We call them the First Ancestral Race," he said, "The creators of Adam and Lilith, and several more besides," he went on. "There were seven in all, each destined for a different world."
Shinji's eyes glazed over. "What are you talking about?" he asked, incredulous. "Aliens? People who aren't human?"
Fuyutsuki smiled. "Ah, but they were human. The first humans, in fact."
Shinji thought back to the day of Third Impact, to the time Misato told him the Angels themselves were human. "So they had human souls, then? Like us?"
Fuyutsuki nodded, then waved a hand dismissively. "But the details of their broader plan are not important. What is important is the fact that, for whatever reason, two of these beings, these Seeds of Life, accidentally wound up on Earth."
"Accidentally?" Shinji asked.
Fuyutsuki nodded. "Correct. This was supposed to be Adam's world," he said. "Lilith -- the being who created us -- was originally destined for another world." He smiled grimly. "But there was an error. We don't know how, but for some reason she was sent here along with Adam."
"I . . . " Shinji began, his earlier discomfort briefly forgotten in the face of this new absurdity. "How the hell do you make a mistake like that?"
Fuyutsuki shrugged. "As I said, we don't have the details. What we do know is that only one of these progenitor beings was permitted to exist on any given world. As such, our ancestors paired each of these beings with a weapon, the Lance of Longinus, which was designed to ensure that their plans would be executed properly."
Shinji scowled, bristling at the notion of what constituted "properly".
"But," Fuyutsuki went on, "Lilith's arrival on Earth was very traumatic; that impact wound up creating our moon, and it's possible Lilith's Lance was lost in the process." He shook his head absently. "Regardless of the reason, the Lance accompanying Adam elected to incapacitate him, leaving Lilith free to fulfill her directive." Fuyutsuki smiled ironically. "Of course, when Seele woke Adam in 2000, the event that would come to be known as Second Impact, he was once again free to fulfill his own directive. But we destroyed him before he could do so, and in the process created the being you knew as Kaworu Nagisa."
Shinji's breath caught. "Kaworu?" he asked.
Fuyutsuki nodded. "Yes."
"Kaworu . . . " Shinji trailed off, remembering. He sighed. His earlier discomfort returned, and forgotten pain besides. "Ayanami, and Kaworu. They--"
Fuyutsuki frowned, concerned by the pain in the young man's eyes. He held up a hand. "Please, Mr. Ikari," he said. "Don't think too harshly of them." He smiled sadly. "Their actions were not altogether their own."
Shinji frowned in confusion. "What do you mean?" he asked.
"Those two were avatars of the First Ancestral Race, and as such were Seeds of Life," Fuyutsuki said. "Their core directives, their need to create new life, took precedence over all other concerns, including their own personal desires."
Shinji shook his head. "But Kaworu said--"
Fuyutsuki nodded. "I am aware of what he said. But you should know that his intent was to preserve the will of the First Ancestral Race, and to ensure that their efforts on this planet continued as they originally intended. Seele bent that intent to their will, using it to manipulate him, to force him to do their bidding after he denied them during Second Impact." He levelled his gaze at Shinji, reassuring the man. "But then he met you," he said, "and everything changed."
Shinji swallowed thickly. "But the Angels and the Lilin couldn't live together . . . "
Fuyutsuki sighed. "Yes," he said, "that was the difficulty. Lilith had fulfilled her directive, and yet this was supposed to be Adam's world. The conflict thus created was incommensurable. In the end, Kaworu yielded to Lilith's will, at great personal sacrifice. And that was where Yui came in."
Shinji raised his head. "Mother?"
Fuyutsuki nodded. "Yes. Your mother chose to take on the burden of Adam, and through the form of the Evangelion fulfill his directive elsewhere." He smiled at Shinji. "She didn't abandon you," he said. "Rather, she chose to accept a sacred obligation, one beyond human comprehension. You should be proud of her," he went on. "Her devotion to duty and to her ideals was very admirable."
Shinji sat back, reeling. "That's why she left?" he whispered.
Fuyutsuki frowned. "Mr. Ikari--" he said, extending a hand.
Shinji stood, grabbing the table to steady himself. He was shaking, and could barely stand. He managed to bow to Fuyutsuki, bestowing the proper respect upon an elder. "Thank you for your insight, sir," he said, his voice wavering.
Fuyutsuki's eyes widened. "I'm sorry," he said. "I didn't mean to upset you--"
"It's fine," Shinji lied, interrupting him. "Please, sir," he asked, "may I go now?"
Fuyutsuki hesitated a moment, then nodded, his lips a thin line. "As you will," he said.
When Shinji exited the building, Asuka had only to glance at him to know that something was very wrong. "What is it?" she asked him.
He stared at her. "Mother," he said. "She . . . I . . . " He turned to Misato. "I'd like to go home now, if that's alright."
Misato looked him over, worry in her eyes. "Okay," she said.
Asuka preceded him in the back seat, then turned to him when he joined her. "Are you alright?" she whispered.
He shook his head. "I don't think so, 'Suka. Not right now."
She bit her lip. "Alright," she said. She took his shoulders, coaxing him to lay his head in her lap. "It'll be okay," she said, trying to keep her voice calm and soothing. "I'll take care of you."
He nodded, wrapping his arms around himself. He didn't reply.
They were silent as Misato drove them home.

Next: I have no idea.

ThanatosII · Postby **ThanatosII** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:31 pm

To be completely honest, I didn't like the way this chapter was handled. Similar to the Kaji chapter [before edits], I see you're trying to frame your chapter around the near-exact dialogue of a Rebuild. It can work to a degree, but overall, it doesn't serve your overall fanfiction well.
Right off the bat, having Fuyu asking Shinji, "Do you remember your mother?" it implies that Shinji has never met his mother, which we know is the opposite case thanks to EoE/Instrumentality. Furthermore, for Shinji to be unaware of the woman in the picture and confuse it for Rei seems like a continuity error due to, again, EoE.

For the Kaworu bits, I inferred Shinji is beyond the "he betrayed me!" stage, especially from your earlier chapters. From what I gathered, Shinji was in the guilt stage for killing him. Actually, Shinji only felt "you betrayed me" when he and Kaworu were descending to Central Dogma, and after those events, carried guilt. Basically, I think this chapter made it as if he hated Kaworu still.

I believe the best way to rebuild this chapter is to frame it around Fuyu being stricken with guilt for letting Gendo get away with as much as he did to put Shinji and Asuka through so much shit. Him wanting to mend things for the better, although it doesn't mean Shinji has to accept, as he could do the very thing he did at the end of your chapter.

Granted, I hope I'm not too harsh here, but from what I understand, you like this type of feedback. Plus, Fuyu is indeed hard to write about given the little quirks we know about him other than his flashback episode and Q, so I'm not holding too much against you. Fuyu can be so deadpan.
:asuka_miffed:

Postby **NemZ** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:36 pm

I'm pretty meh on this one too. Both a callback and nothing particularly new.

Postby **pwhodges** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:17 pm

I come to this late at night (returning at 1am after a concert), so I'll be considering it more tomorrow. But here are a couple of thoughts:

First, I'm not as concerned about this being in some respects straight out of Q. The scene can work here as well, and that's fine. And actually, I found your idea of Kaworu's motivation rather interesting, as well as linking Yui's to it.

What I'm thinking, though, is how hard instrumentality makes the process of writing such a dialogue at all. The problem is simply that if people's awareness was truly merged, what's left to talk about? Of course, not everyone knows all about the whole human race - that would be too much to remember, at least on return, even if we conjecture that within instrumentality it might be less restricted; but surely the things that one did discover in that period would be those that most concerned one, from the minds of family and the closest friends - and these would be the things one would tend to hold on to in one's memory on return, I suppose. So one is left relying on the imperfection of the merging and subsequent memory to enable the tension of such a scene to work; but this needs to be done at a fairly consistent level, and I felt some confusion here as to what Shinji could or could not be expected to have known and to remember.

(That was far too many words for a vague idea, but it'll have to stand until tomorrow).

Postby **Monk Ed** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:40 pm

pwhodges wrote:(That was far too many words for a vague idea, but it'll have to stand until tomorrow).

On the contrary, the vaguer the idea, the more words it takes to explain it, I've found.

I mean just look at this show! :lol:

Bagheera · Postby **Bagheera** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:19 pm

pwhodges wrote:(That was far too many words for a vague idea, but it'll have to stand until tomorrow).

No, I get what you were saying. The whole of the scene turns on both the imperfection of Gendo's knowledge and the lack of connection between Fuyutsuki and Shinji. Both of those need to come across for the scene to work. The idea is that Fuyu knows of Yui's motivations while Gendo did not, and that Shinji connected deeply with his dad in Instrumentality but not with Fuyu (or, rather, didn't recall what he learned when he did connect with Fuyu).

In other words, this is information that is important to Shinji, but it comes from someone with whom he has a very tenuous connection. He "knew" his father during Instrumentality but he didn't "know" Fuyutsuki in the same way, and so he missed out the latter's knowledge even though it was profoundly relevant to his situation. And Fuyu, of course, recognized this, since he came back with very little recollection of Shinji or his situation beyond a vague sense of guilt.

That was the idea, anyway.

NemZ: C'mon, man. I know it's a callback, but I abandoned the pretense pretty early on, and the information therein is new to Shinji. Is the structure of the scene itself an issue, or is it simply that you don't particularly like the information presented? I recognize your bias here -- and the fact that it's coming on two fronts, between the callback and the CI material -- but I also have enough faith in you that I think you can set it aside when evaluating the chapter on its merits.

ThanatosII: You have things backwards. Shinji left guilt re: Kaworu and Rei behind long ago (in no small part due to Asuka's urging) and now feels some sense of betrayal toward them for the way they used him -- Kaworu because he forced such an inhuman decision on him, Rei because she committed profoundly destructive acts on his behalf without explaining the degree of Shinji's involvement in the process. The balance of the Seeds is tricky to manage: they have free will to a degree, but by agreeing to be Seeds they likewise agreed to put certain issues first beyond all other things. But the Forbidden Union creates a fundamental conflict (hence the reason it's "forbidden") that necessitates an outside resolution, hence Lilith's (and by implication Adam's) choice to give Shinji the "honor" of resolving the conflict. That is what Shinji needs to learn here: that their options were limited, and that they did the best they could given the circumstances, just like him. Their circumstances were just nigh-incomprehensible by human standards, something Fuyu grasps but Shinji doesn't (at least not yet), hence his state at the end.

Fuyu's guilt doesn't concern me, and I don't think it would concern the Children, either. If that was all he had going for him there would be no point in his coming back (indeed, that's exactly the reason Gendo didn't come back -- he has no reason to live, save for apologies).

Postby **NemZ** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:44 pm

Partially it's just the nature of callbacks in general. I've seen way, way too many fanfic authors lift scenes from existing materials with minor changes and call it their own so that even when it's being substantially repurposed it still rubs me the wrong way. And it's mixing Rebuild with the series/EoE. And it's using CI stuff. That's 3 strikes. :um:

On top of that it's something that's just such old news to me (not to Shinji, admittedly) that it doesn't do much for me to see it written out in shorthand with Fuyu's near-total lack of personality giving it nothing of interest. The REACTION to this information could be interesting, but it's so tightly controlled here and then just cut off that there isn't much for me to care about.

Hence a great big MEH.

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